Log Would appreciate your thoughts on my prospective build

[findingmyfeet]

Hello everyone, I've spent a fair amount of time over the past month or so trying to get back up to speed with much of the new hardware available right now, but appreciably have probably really only skimmed the surface of what's available out there.

I'm looking to build my first ever SFF build (previously just built in ATX because that's how long ago it was), but SFF seems much more palatable on the desk and interesting to build in.

The aim on the build is to have something capable of high end gaming and productivity stuff. Maybe a little editing of graphics and video too. I want it to last for as long as possible and so have also gone for higher spec processors and some other things like the SFX-L PSU that are probably overengineered but seem to cost the same as some of the smaller ones out there.

I've got down to the following list of parts so far, but know there's more required and would really appreciate some input on what I've chosen so far and any suggestions for improvement. https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/BDnzrr

Also note that the GPU listed is one I have which is a cheap stop gap for an output until things settle down for either a 3090, 3080 Ti or whatever else is out if it takes that long for pricing and components to appear at a sensible rate and price in the future. I'm also no expert on monitors but that one look really nice and shiny, but open to other suggestions (don't want something that looks like an RGB sickpile though, or cheap and plasticky). Sorry if I've inadvertently offended any RGB lovers out there, I don't mind it but my personal choice is to not have everything to light up in order to be happy about the build.

There's no case shown so far but have been thinking maybe DA2 V2 or Meshlicious when back in stock as my preferred option. I love the S4 mini but it just seems too small for what I was thinking about, well at least without a lot of tinkering, bravery for modding and cad skills none of which I posses much of!

 

[Protools]

AFAIK, Meshlicious doesn't officially support Mini-DTX, or is subject to change. Or maybe change the motherboard to something like X570 or B550 Strix ITX?
I'd say wait for meshlicious to release or get an NCASE M1.

 

[tinyitx]

1 quick thought:-
Unless you really need 2x32GB right now, I would suggest using 2x16GB, which should be plenty for gaming at 1440p. The main reason is, judging by history, price of memory almost always goes down as time goes by. As you said you wish the system to last as long as possible, you might be looking at 6-8 years minimum. So, you might just sell the current 2x16GB modules and buy 2x32GB after 4-6 years and this is likely to save some money.
(Price of RAM actually rises somewhat in the past 6-8 months due to COVID. But the virus will go away sooner or later and should not affect memory price in the long haul)

I just bought a new memory card. It costs 1/4 of the price of my 6-year old card and it has 8 times the memory size (and faster speed too). This is the general picture. And this pattern also applies to the SSD category too.

 

[thelaughingman]

AFAIK, Meshlicious doesn't officially support Mini-DTX, or is subject to change. Or maybe change the motherboard to something like X570 or B550 Strix ITX?
I'd say wait for meshlicious to release or get an NCASE M1.

officially no, but Wahaha has built with the C8I AND Arctic liquid freezer in 3 slot-mode in the very first post of the Meshlicious thread

There's no case shown so far but have been thinking maybe DA2 V2 or Meshlicious when back in stock as my preferred option. I love the S4 mini but it just seems too small for what I was thinking about, well at least without a lot of tinkering, bravery for modding and cad skills none of which I posses much of!

S4M is 5L-class case so it's never gonna work with your components. DA2 v2 and Meshlicious are good choices, or you go larger towards 20L with cases like Sliger Cerberus or S620, CM NR200, Jonsbo i100 Pro

 

[Valantar]

Some general thoughts here:

That motherboard is a poor choice. Why? Several reasons. First, it's DTX, which drastically limits case compatibility (look around the Meshlicious and Dan C4 threads for @Boil's compatibility woes if you're in doubt). Second, it has its m.2 slots on a separate "SODIMM.2" AIC, which further limits compatibility as it sticks out quite a bit from the board, making it incompatible with many sandwich cases. What do you get in return for this? Nothing much. Unless you are an LN2 overclocker, it has pretty much zero useful features over the X570 Strix, and arguably B550 is a better choice for ITX due to its much less power hungry chipset (which is why all X570 boards have fans), and the fact that you're not actually utilizing the PCIe 4.0 capabilities of the chipset in ITX. Yes, you get two 4.0 m.2 slots rather than one 4.0 and one 3.0, but ... the difference is negligible. You'll see it in benchmarks, but even the fastest PCIe 4.0 drives don't come close to saturating a 3.0 bus in real-world workloads (look at the ATSB Light results for a representative average end user load, or ATSB Heavy for very heavy workstation use). A 4.0 drive in a 3.0 slot might perform marginally slower than this again, but nothing that would be even remotely noticeable. One could of course argue for a beefy VRM or things like that, but under non-exotic cooling you can't really overclock Ryzen very much, so VRM quality is plenty good enough on most motherboards. Most B550 boards also have better VRMs than most X570 boards simply due to being newer, and they often also have advanced features like 2.5GbE that no X570 boards have. There are no good arguments for X570 being more future-proof than B550.

I would look at the ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax, Gigabyte B550I Aorus Pro AX, or Asus Strix B550. Each has pros and cons: The Strix has a good featureset and great Asus BIOS, but the weakest VRM of the bunch (by quite a bit). Not that that matters much in real life. It's also rather cramped, and expensive. The Aorus is good and affordable, but lacks front USB-C support without an adapter. The ASRock has right-angle SATA ports making it difficult if not impossible to use them in many cases with the PSU placed directly next to the motherboard. There's an MSI board as well, which should be decent, but I can't stand MSI as a company, so I'm not going into that.

That PSU is complete overkill. It's not overengineered - there are lower output units that are as good or better quality - it's just way more than you'll ever need. A 10900K + 3090 can run on a good quality 650W unit, though 750W is a safer bet due to power spikes etc. Most PSU calculators are utter garbage, and don't come close to real-world power draws, ending up recommending way overblown PSUs. The aforementioned 10900K+3090 setup is likely to consume <500W on average while gaming, though of course this fluctuates. If you're likely to run heavy 100% CPU+GPU workloads like rendering you'll need to account for the full power draw of your components, but with an AMD CPU, that's 144W max (they don't go higher unles you OC, period) + however much your GPU consumes. And given that the 400W 3090 is already pushing the bounds of what can be powered and cooled in most PCs, there's no reason to plan for anything higher than that. Add another 75W for the motherboard, RAM, fans, pumps, RGB, etc., and you've got 620W absolute maximum sustained power draw (of course most 3090s don't pull 400W average - that's the OC versions). Real-world power draws are likely to be much lower, and of coruse using a lower end GPU will cut that number significantly. The 750W Corsair SF Platinum is the de facto standard in this range due to it having been on the market for a while and performing excellently, but any other 750W-850W SFX or SFX-L PSU will be plenty good. Focus on reading reviews and looking at noise, fan profiles, etc, as that can end up mattering more than output capability in the end. There are no cheap or low quality high output SFX PSUs. There's no reason to think the PSU you've chosen is a bad choice, but it's just a waste overall.

As mentioned above, don't buy 64GB of RAM unless you actually need it. "Productivity stuff" is pretty vague, but "maybe a little editing of graphics and video too" makes me suspect it won't be very RAM-heavy (unless you do lots of database work or compiling?). I recently upgraded to 32GB, and ... I don't actually need it. I leave literally everything open all the time (recently it's been 7 Firefox windows with ~15 tabs each, a few Word docs, Outlook, Teams, OneNote, at least three game launchers, with HWinfo64 and Aquasuite running in the background. And I barely exceed 16GB while gaming, and at worst push a bit past that in Lightroom. Ryzen responds very well to faster memory, so buying the capacity you need with the fastest timings and clock speeds you can afford is the best approach. If you're currently close to maxing out 32GB in your regular usage 64GB is reasonable, but if not, stick with 32. RAM needs grow very, very slowly.

The best AIOs out there are either Arctic or EK. They are a clear step above the competition in terms of performance, and should be pretty quiet too (especially the Arctic).

I completely agree with your overall mission of making this a future-proof build (to the degree that such a thing is possible with a PC), but making smart choices is crucial, and going overboard on things where you don't get any benefit but just added expense or complexity doesn't help this mission.

 

[BaK]

^ That's what I call a detailed round up of the situation

 

[findingmyfeet]

Thanks everybody for your comments and advice. It looks like I need to go back to the drawing board again and have a think about what to use. I have a couple more questions based on your replies and would appreciate your input for these.

I would look at the ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax, Gigabyte B550I Aorus Pro AX, or Asus Strix B550.

Thanks. I had looked at the AS Rock and TB would be a nice addition, the Asus Strix reviews said much the same about the VRM being weak. DTX sounded like a good idea in concept, but appreciate it would very much constrain the case choice and also the Crosshair sounds very poor in light of what you've said.

DA2 v2 and Meshlicious are good choices, or you go larger towards 20L with cases like Sliger Cerberus or S620, CM NR200, Jonsbo i100 Pro

Thanks for the case advice. I prefer the Meshlicious and hopefully not too long to wait now as I think they are due for pre-order here at the end of the month.

Unless you really need 2x32GB right now, I would suggest using 2x16GB, which should be plenty for gaming at 1440p. The main reason is, judging by history, price of memory almost always goes down as time goes by. As you said you wish the system to last as long as possible, you might be looking at 6-8 years minimum. So, you might just sell the current 2x16GB modules and buy 2x32GB after 4-6 years and this is likely to save some money.

Ryzen responds very well to faster memory, so buying the capacity you need with the fastest timings and clock speeds you can afford is the best approach.

Yes I know you're right here I guess I should look again. I read some articles advising to keep the memory at a 1:1 with the infinity fabric clock of the Ryzen CPU. Some suggest that this can be stable at 2000 MHz, many more seem to be stating 1800 MHz and hence 3600MHz RAM as being the best option. What would you recommend here?

That PSU is complete overkill.

Fair enough I think I was working on the assumption that it might last longer if working at around 60% of its total load capacity. Will look at some others that are in the recommended range.

The best AIOs out there are either Arctic or EK. They are a clear step above the competition in terms of performance, and should be pretty quiet too (especially the Arctic).

I went for the Kraken as it seemed to be appearing a fair bit in people like Optimum Tech's build reviews and as it had a 280mm radiator. EK's website advisor only seemed to go up to 240mm radiators when I tried it so just made an educated guess based on physics (i.e. 33% more area should naturally dissipate more heat at the same rate of airflow). I'll certainly look at the Artic coolers too and would like it to be as quiet as possible.

Admittedly cooling is the least researched area of my build to date as I figured I'd work this out once I knew what the other components were. Are there any recommended places you'd advise to visit so I can read up both water cooled and fans?

 

[Valantar]

Yes I know you're right here I guess I should look again. I read some articles advising to keep the memory at a 1:1 with the infinity fabric clock of the Ryzen CPU. Some suggest that this can be stable at 2000 MHz, many more seem to be stating 1800 MHz and hence 3600MHz RAM as being the best option. What would you recommend here?

1:1 is definitely preferrable, but how high you can get it is very much down to luck and the quality of the IF in your specific CPU. 3600/1800 RAM/IF is pretty safe, should work on more or less 100% of CPUs. Many can handle 3800/1900, some can handle 4000/2000 and some even higher. But it's higly dependent on voltages that you're sadly not given much direct control over through the BIOS - you can adjust vSOC, which also adjusts the IF and memory controller voltage, but running a high vSOC isn't a particularly good idea. Ideally these would be controllable individually, but they aren't.

There's also the question of timings, and in general, tighter timings are an easier performance gain than higher clocks once you start getting past 3600-3800. I've only really dabbled slightly in memory/IF OC on my Ryzen systems, so I can't give much specific advice, but my recommendation would be to get RAM that can reliably clock high enough, and then tighten timings as much as you can. Depending on price and availability it might be better to buy way overrated RAM (4000-4400) and downclock to a manageable 1:1 speed - but don't overpay for anything like that. Similarly, there are good 3200c14 B-die kits out there that can typically handle 3800 at pretty tight timings.

 

[findingmyfeet]

I would look at the ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax, Gigabyte B550I Aorus Pro AX, or Asus Strix B550.

@Valantar I've looked again at these three and have decided that the Gigabyte B550I Aorus Pro AX is the best of the bunch.

It does say it has 2 x USB 3.2 Gen 1 ports available through the internal USB header, so in terms of the connectivity of the front USB C port on the Meshlicious would I need a simple adapter to plug in to the header to be able to do this?

 

[Valantar]

@Valantar I've looked again at these three and have decided that the Gigabyte B550I Aorus Pro AX is the best of the bunch.

It does say it has 2 x USB 3.2 Gen 1 ports available through the internal USB header, so in terms of the connectivity of the front USB C port on the Meshlicious would I need a simple adapter to plug in to the header to be able to do this?

Yep, something like this should do the trick. The main limitation is that it forces you to choose whether to have USB-A or USB-C connected to the front panel, as the USB-C uses both sets of data lanes for double bandwidth (i.e. both available ports are bundled into one), which other boards avoid through having two connectors. Of course you could always connect the front USB-A to a rear I/O port using an adapter like this - though of course you'd then have to run a cable out of the case to reach the rear I/O.

 

[findingmyfeet]

Yep, something like this should do the trick. The main limitation is that it forces you to choose whether to have USB-A or USB-C connected to the front panel, as the USB-C uses both sets of data lanes for double bandwidth (i.e. both available ports are bundled into one), which other boards avoid through having two connectors. Of course you could always connect the front USB-A to a rear I/O port using an adapter like this - though of course you'd then have to run a cable out of the case to reach the rear I/O.

Ok and is there any way to trick a USB C into thinking it had two lanes open when really it only has one and hence run both A and C?

Or maybe a way to modify a USB A cable end to physically appear as a USB C female port similar to how a male A to to female C adaptor would work?

May be a stupid question but it just popped in to my head.

 

[Valantar]

Ok and is there any way to trick a USB C into thinking it had two lanes open when really it only has one and hence run both A and C?

Or maybe a way to modify a USB A cable end to physically appear as a USB C female port similar to how a male A to to female C adaptor would work?

May be a stupid question but it just popped in to my head.

I was thinking about the same thing as I wrote that post, and as the type-C just uses double the amount of lanes, it would most likely work* with just one set of lanes connected. How exactly one went about modding that is of course another question. The old-school 20-pin USB 3.x headers are hand solderable (I've tried, it's not easy, but then I suck at soldering), but I've never seen the new connectors available for DIY work. Probably possible, but the increased density probably means increased difficulty. The "easiest" mod would likely be to get one of those internal adapters, solder wires for a USB-A 3.x cable directly to the correct exposed pins on that, and then disconnect or insulate the matching pins inside of the USB-C connector on the adapter.

The * next to "work" is rather major though. Unless the mod in question contains a signal multiplexer chip for the USB-C cable, it would most likely stop working in one orientation, as only half of its pins would actually be connected to anything. 5gbps USB-C with a single set of lanes always have a mux chip of some sort to handle connector rotation. Of course it might just break everything outright - I'm not sure how USB-C devices would react to a host with missing pins.

A simpler solution might be using an internal USB 3.x hub like this, though that is of course rather large and impractical.

 

[findingmyfeet]

Yes looking far too big to use (12.7 x 8.38 x 5.84 cm). Looking around there seem to be plenty of things that split USB 2 headers but none for USB 3. Also plenty of PCI cards, but obvious can't use one of those.

 

[Valantar]

Yes looking far too big to use (12.7 x 8.38 x 5.84 cm). Looking around there seem to be plenty of things that split USB 2 headers but none for USB 3. Also plenty of PCI cards, but obvious can't use one of those.

Yeah, there aren't many uses for internal USB 3.x splitters, while there are plenty for USB 2.0 splitters (many boards only have one header, yet an increasing amonut of devices use that header for control - AIOs, fan controllers, RGB controllers, etc.), so it's understandable that there are plenty of those. Unfortunately I think you're stuck choosing between USB-A and USB-C with the Aorus board unless you're willing to roll your own adapter.

 

[findingmyfeet]

Yeah, there aren't many uses for internal USB 3.x splitters, while there are plenty for USB 2.0 splitters (many boards only have one header, yet an increasing amonut of devices use that header for control - AIOs, fan controllers, RGB controllers, etc.), so it's understandable that there are plenty of those. Unfortunately I think you're stuck choosing between USB-A and USB-C with the Aorus board unless you're willing to roll your own adapter.

Yes seems that way, it's a shame really that of the four main B550 boards available each is missing something.
Gigabyte - Missing the extra header.
ASUS - The VRM is weaker - but how weak is it? Would it run a 5900X happily at full load?
AS Rock - Potential SATA positioning and clear CMOS under GPU card.
The people you dislike - Clear CMOS under the IO Shield!!

 

[Valantar]

Yes seems that way, it's a shame really that of the four main B550 boards available each is missing something.
Gigabyte - Missing the extra header.
ASUS - The VRM is weaker - but how weak is it? Would it run a 5900X happily at full load?
AS Rock - Potential SATA positioning and clear CMOS under GPU card.
The people you dislike - Clear CMOS under the IO Shield!!

Literally any AM4 board with the right BIOS can support any AM4 CPU. You can run a 5950X on the shittiest bargain-basement A320 board as long as the BIOS supports it and get full performance (within reason - all motherboards perform slightly differently). That's what I meant by saying that people's concerns about VRM quality are massively overblown. AMD has a power delivery specification for the AM4 socket, which board OEMs must follow, and no AM4 CPU will exceed that specification at stock.

Let's look at the Asus: it has an 8+2 VRM layout with 50A power stages, which is actually 4+1 with each phase teamed (not doubled, but connected in parallel). (Teaming allows for faster transient response than doubling, but is worse for efficiency as you can't load balance between the teamed pairs.) 50A power stages are pretty lack-lustre compared to the common 70A or 90A smart power stages used by many. But are they bad? No. Smart power stages are smarter, i.e. they have integrated thermal sensors and monitoring, which is of course good, but it's not really necessary for day-to-day operation. It's just nice to have, and ensures the VRM can run more efficiently and safely when pushed to its limits. As for the 50A rating - again, that's plenty. You don't want to run your power stages at 100% output as that's not where they're the most efficient, but ... well, you're not getting close to that. A little math:

A stock 5900X or 5950X will max out at 144W power draw. Period. CPU voltage at that point might be anywhere from 1.3-1.45V from the VRM (actual voltages in the CPU will be lower, but never mind that, as it's not relevant here). 144W/1.3V=110,8A, or 114W/1.45V=99A. Spread across four pairs of power stages, assuming constant power draw and ideal load balancing across the stages, that's anywhere from 12.5A to 13.9A per power stage. Let's say the teaming is utterly broken and balancing between the teamed stages doesn't work at all, putting all the load across just one of the two teamed stages: that's still just 25-28A per stage. So even a pure 4-phase layout with these same 50A power stages would still be at ~50% load with any of these CPUs. Of course the higher the load the more heat output, but most power stages are ~94% efficient if configured properly. That would mean a heat output of 144W/94*100-144=9.2W. That's a bit much for cooling without a heatsink in a 4-phase VRM, but for a teamed 4-phase with a large heatsink? Even if the heatsink doesn't have much surface area (like the one on the Asus Strix B550i), it's trivial to keep cool.

What about overclocking then? Well, pushing any Ryzen CPU above 200W is nearly impossible. So let's say we can do 250W at 1.45V (which would likely degrade your CPU, so it isn't a stable overclock no matter what). 250W at 1.45V is 172A. 172A across 8 phases is 21,5A per power stage. So still entirely within the capabilities of the B550I Strix. Heat output would rise, but ... meh. It could still handle it perfectly fine. At that point you would be limited by other things like CPU cooling or the VRM's ability to handle rapid transient power spikes, not its overall current rating.

The reason why people don't like this is 'cause this board is expensive. It started out at an MSRP about $30 higher than most competitors, while those competitors delivered similar featuresets elsewhere but far superior VRM setups. Now that it's come down about $20 it's a bit more reasonable. It's still poor value in that regard. But it doesn't matter unless you're an LN2 overclocker.

Tl;dr: don't worry about it. The Asus will run any CPU out there more than fine.

 

[findingmyfeet]

Ok thank you @Valantar looking at it from that perspective it is back in as I have found it for just £10 more than the Arorus and think I'd prefer the extra header being available and keeping the front panel working correctly without an either or scenario or a load of hassle and compromise.

 

[findingmyfeet]

Hi all, as an update I've got to this point now on my build and would appreciate a little help on what might be the best RAM to add in to this. It's looking likely from everything that I've read and watched that 3600MHz would be the best bet, as 4000MHz kits seem difficult and much more expensive for diminishing returns. I would however be open to considering all options and understanding the pros and cons of each.

My updated list is here: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/GztfBc

As it's pretty plain I also wouldn't discount a little RGB here or there as it won't be overload.

I'll still probably look at the Meshlicious as the final home for these parts, but again if there's anything else you guys think would be worth considering then I'd take a look at that too. Did think of the DA2 V2 as well, so real world experiences of owners would be greatly received.

 

[findingmyfeet]

Any thoughts on these would be great if you could let me know your views.

Currently I'm thinking probably 32GB G.Skill DDR4 TridentZ RGB 3600Mhz PC4-28800 CL14 1.45V Dual Channel Kit (2x16GB) for the RAM, but if there anything else that would be worth a look?

I see other kits with a little higher latency, but not sure how much the gains / penalties really are in real world. I've watched lots of videos and read a fair amount, but still not convinced I am on top of this. If I went for day three CL 16 version of the same kit how easy is it to tune it up to be CL14?

There's a video with a Corsair tech video saying just go for the best timing RAM, but then also saying most of the other kits can perform much higher (with a caveat of your on your own).

 

[thelaughingman]

If I went for day three CL 16 version of the same kit how easy is it to tune it up to be CL14?

don't bother, RAM OC is never worth the effort, especially when you to run it daily stable. just get the 3200 C14 kit and be done with it