Windows 10 discussion Thread

[Vittra]

I haven't done too much research yet on Win10 as I was waiting for it to release and have some time to flesh out some of the more vague parts - primarily how upgrades work, if they are tied to motherboards, can you do a clean install, and what type of information is gathered on the OS.

It looks like you can download the install media rather than going through Windows Update, even if you are doing an update, through here: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10

With respect to information gathering, other than all the options the OS provides for turning things off, I believe one of the most important things to do is to remain logged into a local account, much like Win 8.1, as this is indeed possible. This will of course prevent use of the MS Store and many apps, but you will not be permanently logged into cloud based services, which may have different TOS than the OS itself and could be gathering information on you.

Is anyone able to clarify if a fully clean install is possible without first upgrading, once you have upgraded at least once? Also, has anyone determined with certainty if you change your hardware ID (motherboard swap) if you can reinstall or if you are then forced to purchase a copy of Win10?

 

[EdZ]

If you make a significant hardware change, the situation is the same as with every Windows version since Vista: automatic activation over the web will fail, but automatic activation over the phone will still work.

 

[Vittra]

Has that been confirmed somewhere, however? I have seen some mention of having to actually phone to speak to a live representative for activation, haven't heard anything regarding automated activation.

 

[jeshikat]

Is anyone able to clarify if a fully clean install is possible without first upgrading, once you have upgraded at least once? Also, has anyone determined with certainty if you change your hardware ID (motherboard swap) if you can reinstall or if you are then forced to purchase a copy of Win10?

I've done it and you have to do the upgrade at least once to get the 10 key but after that a clean install is possible. It links the hardware fingerprint to the key, when you do the clean install it'll automatically activate if the hardware hasn't changed.

Haven't tested swapping motherboards or anything though but I imagine it'll be the same automated phone system as before.

 

[Phuncz]

The hardware fingerprint is now bound to your MS account I believe, how do they do it if you are only using a local account, I'm wondering.

 

[jeshikat]

It automatically activates even if the computer has never been setup with a Microsoft account.

I figure the key is linked to just the hardware fingerprint in the event that no MS account is signed in.

 

[Phuncz]

Because my Windows 7 install was acting up and filling my SSD (Windows folder alone over 40GB), Linux gives me enough headache with servers and OS X on x86 is still a far cry from straight-forward installation and maintenance, I decided to install Windows 10.

Some things were done automatically and didn't work as expected. It auto-installed the latest GPU driver. Wonderful but I need a custom driver for my monitor to not look like crap. Unsigned driver install was needed, but ofcourse not something most people need to do. It also installed most drivers, including the audio which can only play in stereo for some reason, no 5.1 sound. I still haven't figured out why, I can't get 5.1 to work with the driver from Asus' website. EDIT: I figured it out, even though the installer was in a constant loop reinstalling after a reboot. It didn't assign the ports to the right speakers.

Mapped network drives, I work extensively with them because I have a powerful ZFS NAS. There are many things that don't work with network connected storage, like some of the file-open dialogs (couldn't select a driver) and even wallpapers don't load from a mapped network drive. This is frustrating because I don't see a reason why this would fail.

Many aspects of the OS are still two-faced in design, with many of the settings using the "flat Modern UI" look, while others are "plain" Windows 7 style. This was an issue for me with Windows 8 and although it's reduced, it's still there taunting you Microsoft doesn't care about proper design philosophy.

All in all this still feels like an OS made for tablets, only modded for desktop usage. But a far cry of a true Windows 7 replacement.

 

[Phuncz]

Seriously, how lazy is this ?

This kind of half-measure hackjob is spread all over the OS.

 

[EdZ]

That's the downside to being the de-facto standard OS: you need to keep legacy support to remain the de-facto standard. While with OS X Apple can say "here's the new API, the old one will be deprecated in a year, deal with it", that won't fly in windows-land. Trying to get everyone who has written a custom driver panel to write a new UI (or whole new driver) to tie into the new UI conventions is like getting blood from a stone. Last time Microsoft made a radical underlying change without sufficient legacy support (Vista's new driver model and user access controls) people went nuts that their old stuff didn't work.

 

[Phuncz]

True but I don't see how the UI needs to have different APIs. That may be my limited understanding of the software infrastructure but I would expect that the user interface is not intertwined into the APIs it uses. As you can see in my example above, they have a "Modern UI" version of lefty-righty (select your primary button) and a classic one (switch primary and secondary buttons). And the scroll options are also available in both.

 

[iFreilicht]

The UI is written in a Markup language called XAML, which is interpreted and compiled into real machine code so the programmer can interact with the UI. (This is of course a gross simplification, but it's sufficient to explain the point.) In order for older programs to run, Windows has to still support all rendering- and API-functions those old controls used. Metro Apps have new controls (or UI-Elements), but they work in different ways to make changes between mouse and touch control and scaling easier, and aren't interchangeable with the legacy controls for multiple other reasons.
This does somewhat explain why there are still those old context menus and pop-ups alongside the newer ones, but it's not like microsoft couldn't redo the old system dialogs into the new design. I guess the reason why that isn't completely done yet are time constraints. They wanted to get Win10 out the door as quickly as possible so they only redid the most important things to fit the design.
I really hope that we will see the styles used in Jumplists and context menus in Metro Apps and the Start Menu in all context menus across the OS at some point as well as having all old system settings integrated into the new Settings thingy, but that clearly isn't a priority.

 

[EdZ]

Some of it is also wanting to get rid of some of the rarely-if-ever-used controls to simplify the Metro settings area (e.g. click-lock, CTRL-locating) while keeping the options available for power users.

 

[jØrd]

http://arstechnica.com/information-...ndows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/

 

[EdZ]

Now THAT'S skeevy. Having tools that send data back to MS and can be disabled is one thing, sending data back anyway even when the toggles are turned off is another.

 

[Edward78]

Why Windows 10 Sucks or
Everything Wrong with Windows 10 http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why-windows-10-sucks.html

 

[Phuncz]

That's basically trolling.

 

[Cuzza]

Well I'll say this much. I installed the technical preview and provided heaps of insider feedback over the last 6 months. M$ listened to absolutely none of it and gave me an OS that provides me no benefits over windows 8. I would rather have win7. I loathe Google, detest Apple and now I'm fucked off with Microsoft. Pretty much losing interest in computer tech at the moment.

 

[Phuncz]

General wisdom of the day for a better life: hate less, love more.
This goes hand in hand with my second general wisdom: don't look at products as part of a brand, but as a seperate entity.

Why ? This makes me more neutral in my opinions and it makes me brand-agnostic. Whereas I don't like most Samsung phones, they have some excellent SSDs and TVs. I'm not going to mention which I like/dislike specifically, it doesn't matter. But do I hate the product or the brand ? No. Why would I ? I could just ignore them if I feel a product is not for me.

I don't agree with Google's way of earning money (selling your information to advertising) but I don't hate them but I avoid them.
I think Apple's product design is the pinnacle of modern engineering and I couldn't care less how the world acts around the brand.

I don't understand why people have strong negative feelings towards a company. In the end they sell a product at a certain price and you choose if you want it or not. Strong emotions just make you not see the product as it is, but as you see it.

A good anecdote I regularly see on Anandtech: there are no bad products, just wrong prices.

Like the Google's products, while I don't like selling my privacy, they do offer very good value for money on their services and products.
Or Apple's products, while they are very well crafted, they do cost more in general.

This is also true for Windows 10 for me: since Microsoft wants to profit from my data and sell me apps to make money, I think paying $125 for Windows is absurd when most people can upgrade for free and get the same experience. So they should offer it for free to everyone.

 

[Vittra]

Marketing and advertising are carefully crafted in a way to cultivate dislike and even hatred towards other brands. Another aspect is that is becomes easy to throw ones allegiance to alternate brands if you feel one particular one has slighted you - usually in North America this is a result of poor customer service or RMA support. Sometimes it is difficult for Europeans to understand the second aspects as those of you in the EU under consumer protection laws are usually (not always) well taken care of. In NA, we are often times only slightly above what the Asian markets can expect in terms of RMA/support.

The last aspect is morality/ethics - someone who likes to tweak and tinker with electronics they buy may be put off by Apple's ethos. Similarly, someone who fully respects and appreciates open source philosophy may be downright furious with Apple's practice of taking open source platforms and software, tweaking it, and then making it proprietary.

There's usually some combination of the three things I mentioned at play. I prefer to also base my purchases on price/performance/features/support rather than brand preference. Further to this, I don't typically care where a product is made either, so long as the quality is apparent.

 

[Phuncz]

This is quite off-topic but still no Nova release today so the webs can spare it

Sometimes it is difficult for Europeans to understand the second aspects as those of you in the EU under consumer protection laws are usually (not always) well taken care of.

I'm seeing the exact same empty hatred about brands right here in Europe though, so that doesn't seem to be the issue.

But I'm curious which consumer protection laws (in general) you are thinking about. Because I still have to deal with crappy RMA support and customer service over here in our Glorious Federation of Countries.

The store who sold me a full-cover EK block (made in Africa, sold in Netherlands) instructed me to contact the manufacturer first, which responded I needed to take it up with the store. The exact same thing happened with my Swiftech H220 set.

And at the moment I'm dealing with AVM about a Fritzbox modem/router that crashes a few times a day, for about a month now. Not because I can't go to the store, but sending it back (at my cost) to the shop would mean I'd need to wait about a week to get it shipped and processed through them to the manufacturer's RMA office, X weeks to get it examined by the manufacturer and another week to get it back. Without any guarantee I won't be billed if they don't find anything wrong with it. What consumer protection laws ? The "14 days return policy" ? Only if the product and packaging is in very good condition and shipping costs are for the buyer. You want your money back ? Good luck with that

The last aspect is morality/ethics - someone who likes to tweak and tinker with electronics they buy may be put off by Apple's ethos. Similarly, someone who fully respects and appreciates open source philosophy may be downright furious with Apple's practice of taking open source platforms and software, tweaking it, and then making it proprietary.

I don't want to come across as an Apple fanboy, but I think there is much FUD surrounding the brand and it's even popular to bash the brand without any knowledge. But as some of you have seen, I do like to tinker. But I also own some Apple devices.

Why ? I don't like to tinker with my phone, it should always work because it's important people can reach me. I don't want to have to worry about malware and uncertain product-lifetime support.
I want to use my tablet for media consumption, games and browsing, no other tablet than my trusty iPad can give me a better experience.
Since I've gotten an Airport Extreme, I've never had such a stable home network, with solid WiFi, 100% stability and all options I needed.

If we're talking about desktops, there is no real comparison to be made since Apple hasn't made consumer tower cases in over a decade (Mac Pro = workstation), so it's logical they aren't for tinkerers. Laptops aren't for tinkerers either in my opinion, only so much you can do without soldering.

I'm not saying Apple is divine, but most of the hate towards it is unfounded and ignorant rage. This is the problem, the unguided rage. Not the brand. Because tomorrow it could be Microsoft. It actually was Microsoft that got the most critique before the last century, in my opinion the same unfounded narrow-minded hatred based on 1% fact and 99% here-say. But after seeing people in almost physical agony about a company they don't agree with, it's unsettling. With terrorism and genocide still such huge problems in our lifetimes, why do we have such strong negative feelings about a company we can almost completely ignore ? I just can't understand.