Log Sliger S620 - ITX Master Piece!
- Thread starter MarcParis
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It is mosty due to VRM size, socket position and m.2/daughter cards on Asus board.
Cherry on the top is Motherboard cost : 500€...
VRM tends to be really beefy on Alder's lake and they are mandatory while moving to watercooling (except if VRM are watercooled of course).
To be honest, CPU upgrade is insanely expensive for very little advantage over Zen 3 (even Zen 2), especially while gaming at 4K or higher.
PCIe Gen 5, like Gen 4, is useless right now for consumer market.
Even I/O is completely equal vs X570S boards : thunderbolt 4, 2.5G-10G network.
Let's wait & see I guess..
Following winding path of my mind, I've started to review Z690 ITX motherboards, mostly to anticipate Zen 4 release.
Right now I'm sure I'll give a new try to SM550 as HTPC/Gaming PC for living room (way smaller/bulky than S620).
Thus S620 will be free, but will it able to compete with my allmighty/beloved Cerberus-X? What will be compromises?
That's the main target of my study..
Main constraint of S620 is related to ITX (or almost inexistant DTX) motherboards.
Let's take this photo (Asus B450i strix paired with RTX 3090 FE) as starting point :
Let's jump to Z690 ITX motherboards (on 16th Nov I've found 4 references) :
Asus ROG Strix Z690-i remains the most expensive ITX motherboard, however, I'm clearly upset with what has delivered Asus.
Aorus Z690i Ultra remains an interesting motherboard with some good & bad points.
Asrock Z690M-ITX/ax is "entry" level MB for Z690 ITX MB
Asrock Phantom Gaming Z690 ITX/TB4 is higher end of ITX board.
So far, Z690 ITX are pretty far from ideal from my personal point of view...and they cannot match ATX versions.
I've especially one ATX motherboard family that I truly like :
So far, I would say S620 is losing its game versus Cerberus-X..
Right now I'm sure I'll give a new try to SM550 as HTPC/Gaming PC for living room (way smaller/bulky than S620).
Thus S620 will be free, but will it able to compete with my allmighty/beloved Cerberus-X? What will be compromises?
That's the main target of my study..
Main constraint of S620 is related to ITX (or almost inexistant DTX) motherboards.
Let's take this photo (Asus B450i strix paired with RTX 3090 FE) as starting point :
- Unic PCIe x16 slot is very close to M.2 heatsink leading to obvious narrow tolerance
- VRM, rear i/o, M.2 shields/heatsinks are representing another big contraints
Let's jump to Z690 ITX motherboards (on 16th Nov I've found 4 references) :
Asus ROG Strix Z690-i remains the most expensive ITX motherboard, however, I'm clearly upset with what has delivered Asus.
- (---) Daughter card (red circle in previous image) will clearly enter in interference with bulky GPU, like RTX 3090 FE (ie no sata ports, no full front panel headers (no power button light!))
- (---) Too tall Heatsinks removing all compatibility with Noctua air coolers (D15S, C14S, U12A, etc...)
- (---) No thermal sensor to monitor GPU thermal in order to manage exhaust fan curve
- (++) 2x TB4 plugs
- (++) Very good sound components & output
- (++) Bios Flashback/clear buttons on rear i/o
- (++) 2xM.2 on same side on ITX MB
Aorus Z690i Ultra remains an interesting motherboard with some good & bad points.
- (---) No thermal sensor pins
- (---) Why?! Why?! Why?! USELESS HUGE M.2 heatsink. I can't understand WHY?! This M.2 heatsink is preventing Noctua U12Aassembly..however, contraty to Asus MB, you can easily remove & replace it
- (---) 2 audio channels output only!! But good Realtek® ALC4080 CODEC
- (---) Bios flash/reset jumpers only (not terrible but ok)
- (---) No TB4
- (++) 2xM.2 on same side on ITX MB
- (++) Simple & efficient design
Asrock Z690M-ITX/ax is "entry" level MB for Z690 ITX MB
- (---) Awful Realtek ALC897 Audio Codec
- (---) Average 2.5G Network Realtek Dragon RTL8125BG paired with Intel 219 1Gb
- (---) No TB4
- (---) No thermal sensor pins
- (---) not heatsink for some VRM (not made for all CPU)
- (++) Low heatsink profile with maximum compatibility for cpu cooler
Asrock Phantom Gaming Z690 ITX/TB4 is higher end of ITX board.
- (---) No thermal sensor pins
- (++) Reasonible height for heatsinks
- (++) 1x TB4 plug
- (++) Bios Flashback/clear buttons on rear i/o
So far, Z690 ITX are pretty far from ideal from my personal point of view...and they cannot match ATX versions.
I've especially one ATX motherboard family that I truly like :
- Asus ProArt B550 / X570 / Z690 :
- Basically you have TB4, up to 3xM.2, up to 10G RJ-45 plugs, no proximity with PCIe & CPU cooler
-
So far, I would say S620 is losing its game versus Cerberus-X..
Noctua D15 can "fit" Asus Z690 by removing 1st M.2.
Question is : Will D15S will work ?..
Question is : Will D15S will work ?..
Regarding Alder's lake release & benchmarking, for gaming performance analysis, I'm wondering why testers are not comparing loading time, especially for games with a lot save/load (RPG like Baldur's Gate 3, Solasta or Pathinder for example).
As example I ran some benchmark on loading same savegame on Baldur's gate between my two systems
Here are results :
Basically, R7 5800X is roughly 13-15% faster than R7 3800X to load same savegame, with same resolution/details.
Knowing that I'm saving/loading about 40 times per hour, leading to 3min saved per hour.
This seems low but as on such a game, we can spend 100h easily, this leads to 5h of gaming saved, about 5%
On Baldur's gate 3, loading is mostly a 1 thread processing, so I've looked at this type of benchmark, like Cinebench R23
Approximately, you have same gap between Zen 2 vs Zen 3 compared to Zen 3 to Alder Lake.
That's why I'm thinking to consider a potential switch from R7 3800X to i5-12600K.
This feeling is reinforced by 2 additional points Alder lake vs Zen 4 :
Let's wait & see..
As example I ran some benchmark on loading same savegame on Baldur's gate between my two systems
- Sliger S620 with R7 5800X
- Sliger Cerberus-X with R7 3800X
Here are results :
Basically, R7 5800X is roughly 13-15% faster than R7 3800X to load same savegame, with same resolution/details.
Knowing that I'm saving/loading about 40 times per hour, leading to 3min saved per hour.
This seems low but as on such a game, we can spend 100h easily, this leads to 5h of gaming saved, about 5%
On Baldur's gate 3, loading is mostly a 1 thread processing, so I've looked at this type of benchmark, like Cinebench R23
Approximately, you have same gap between Zen 2 vs Zen 3 compared to Zen 3 to Alder Lake.
That's why I'm thinking to consider a potential switch from R7 3800X to i5-12600K.
This feeling is reinforced by 2 additional points Alder lake vs Zen 4 :
- Zen 4 will use only DDR5...regarding current really strong shortage & no performance gain over DDR4, DDR5 seems not to be a mature solution so far
- Zen 4 will also be gen 5 but if AMD is doing like on Zen 2 with 1st gen of X570 board with cooling fan on chipset it will be a no go
Let's wait & see..
As my SX800 LTI passed away on my Cerberus-X I decided to move SX700 (no fanless mode) to my Sliger S620 setup. (Thus I'm putting back SF750 to Cerberus-X)
In fact, cable management of SX700 was even easier than SF750.
I just figured out I didn't post any photo of my current S620 setup, so here it is :
I wish Sliger some side panel with feet to make S620 horizontal stand a beautiful reality..
In fact, cable management of SX700 was even easier than SF750.
I just figured out I didn't post any photo of my current S620 setup, so here it is :
I wish Sliger some side panel with feet to make S620 horizontal stand a beautiful reality..
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I just ordered this case but it will be a few weeks before it arrives. For the CPU my plan is to have one from AMD (either an 5800X or maybe an 7600X). For the GPU I wanted to buy a new RTX 4080 16GB but after that unconvincing presentation last night with the crazy prices I might stick with my 2080 Ti for a while longer. I'll post what I decided on as soon as I know.
For the cooling I have an advantage over the other builds in this thread that a new Noctua CPU Cooler was released: the NH-D12L (NSPR of 148). In performance it is close to the NH-D15 (NSPR of 183) or NH-U12A (NSPR of 169) but it is not as tall. So there will be room for a slim side fan above the CPU cooler. My current plan is to use the power supply in the length wise configuration (pulling in fresh air from outside) with 2 slim exhaust fans (2x Noctua NF-A12x15) on top and 2 more exhaust fans (1x Noctua NF-A12x15 + 1x Noctua NF-A14) on the side. On the back I'll try to use a Noctua NF-A12x25 as an intake. I want to build a shroud that directly connects it to the CPU cooler since this worked very well in my Sentry 2.0 build. If I get the noise that others were describing in this thread I might use spacers to shift it a few mm away from the back of the case (might need to use a slim fan then...we will see). For GPU I'll also try to build a shroud to the bottom of the case to avoid recycling hot air.
This way the will be a lot of air exhausted via the 4 large case fans and all critical components (CPU, GPU, power supply) will work as intakes that get fresh air from the outside. I'll report how that plan works once I start building.
Alexander
For the cooling I have an advantage over the other builds in this thread that a new Noctua CPU Cooler was released: the NH-D12L (NSPR of 148). In performance it is close to the NH-D15 (NSPR of 183) or NH-U12A (NSPR of 169) but it is not as tall. So there will be room for a slim side fan above the CPU cooler. My current plan is to use the power supply in the length wise configuration (pulling in fresh air from outside) with 2 slim exhaust fans (2x Noctua NF-A12x15) on top and 2 more exhaust fans (1x Noctua NF-A12x15 + 1x Noctua NF-A14) on the side. On the back I'll try to use a Noctua NF-A12x25 as an intake. I want to build a shroud that directly connects it to the CPU cooler since this worked very well in my Sentry 2.0 build. If I get the noise that others were describing in this thread I might use spacers to shift it a few mm away from the back of the case (might need to use a slim fan then...we will see). For GPU I'll also try to build a shroud to the bottom of the case to avoid recycling hot air.
This way the will be a lot of air exhausted via the 4 large case fans and all critical components (CPU, GPU, power supply) will work as intakes that get fresh air from the outside. I'll report how that plan works once I start building.
Alexander
Thanks for writing here and share your plans!
Indeed Sliger S620 is a very SFF Case (second best after my so beloved Cerberus-X..) for me.
Regarding your cooling setup here are my comments :
Anyway I'm interested in your final build.
Indeed Sliger S620 is a very SFF Case (second best after my so beloved Cerberus-X..
) for me.Regarding your cooling setup here are my comments :
- NH-D12L is perfect for S610, not 620. NH-U12A remains my recommandation with D15S (compared to Noctua standard, this is pretty significant gap 148 vs 169 vs 183). But overall that will be motherboard choice that imposes you worst constraint. (Asus X670E seems as horrible as Asus Z690I for air cooler compatibility)
- Placing a side/top exhaust just at CPU cooler seems counter productive as you will break airflow (from Rear to front of the case)
- Based on my experience, all you need is one effective side exhaust fan. All hot air from GPU+CPU will be push towards it. This is working so well with either passthrough GPU (RTX FE) or standard with axial fans GPU (like my MSI GTX 1080 Ti)
Anyway I'm interested in your final build.
Thanks for your reply
Yes, picking a good motherboard might be a problem. This is actually one of the reasons why I chose the NH-D12L because it is smaller that the D15 and D15S and therefore hopefully allows more options. And the D15S is not that far off performance-wise (D12L NSPR = 148 vs D15S NSPR = 167; that is just 12% difference). And even Noctua itself says the D12L is fine with the AMD Ryzen 9 5950X and even with the Intel Core i9-12900KS monster both with lots of overclocking headroom. And I don't intent to use such a hefty CPU and also I don't want to use overclocking. Probably I'm even going to undervolt a bit.
That is true. That is why I plan to build a shroud from the back of the case over the CPU. This way only the hot air that comes out at the end of the shroud should be sucked away.
Maybe you are right but I'm not sure. There will be plenty of air transported into the case with the rear fan connected to the CPU, the GPU with probably a triple fan design and the power supply with its fan are all sucking air in. How should a single exhaust fan get rid of all that? Also I'm planing to use a GPU with a higher TDP than the 1080 Ti. That is why I choose to have as many case exhaust fans as possible.
When I have done the build I can test this by switching on only a single case fan and see how much of a difference that makes. This will be interesting for others planing to build in this case...
Alexander
Yes, picking a good motherboard might be a problem. This is actually one of the reasons why I chose the NH-D12L because it is smaller that the D15 and D15S and therefore hopefully allows more options. And the D15S is not that far off performance-wise (D12L NSPR = 148 vs D15S NSPR = 167; that is just 12% difference). And even Noctua itself says the D12L is fine with the AMD Ryzen 9 5950X and even with the Intel Core i9-12900KS monster both with lots of overclocking headroom. And I don't intent to use such a hefty CPU and also I don't want to use overclocking. Probably I'm even going to undervolt a bit.
That is true. That is why I plan to build a shroud from the back of the case over the CPU. This way only the hot air that comes out at the end of the shroud should be sucked away.
Maybe you are right but I'm not sure. There will be plenty of air transported into the case with the rear fan connected to the CPU, the GPU with probably a triple fan design and the power supply with its fan are all sucking air in. How should a single exhaust fan get rid of all that? Also I'm planing to use a GPU with a higher TDP than the 1080 Ti. That is why I choose to have as many case exhaust fans as possible.
When I have done the build I can test this by switching on only a single case fan and see how much of a difference that makes. This will be interesting for others planing to build in this case...
Alexander
Well that is exactly the purpose of this forum to exchange different goals, setups & solutions.
For example, for my point of view, current state of mini ITX motherboard (see above posts) is leading me to ATX motherboards (cheaper, more options, more space, aso). Overall my main sensitivities are : noise, cooling & easy maintenance. Case size is coming just after those ones and that's why I appreciate so much Cerberus-X (perfect balance for my taste), even after 5 years in active service..
Let's see your final setup once completed with, hopefully, AM5 & RTX 40xx, available at reasonible/MSRP price..
Unfortunately that is not going to happen anytime soon. After the RTX40XX presentation, I'm going to stick to my current 2080Ti until either AMD presents us something more reasonable or Nvidia comes to its senses again. I mean selling us downsized chips (relative to the previous generation) while radically increasing prices is just crazy...Let's see your final setup once completed with, hopefully, AM5 & RTX 40xx, available at reasonible/MSRP price..
So the current plan is to transplant to my "old" 5800X on a GIGABYTE B450 I AORUS Pro WIFI from the Sentry 2.0 to the new case with the new CPU Cooler and the old GPU. Not as cool as I had hoped but what can you do...
Alexander
In fact, in terms of benchmark, moving your current hardware to S620 will be way better to measure positive/negative evolutions..
I fully agree that current "Tech" products are unable to innovate at reasonible price. This is not only limited to GPU unfortunately. It can be observed on cell phone too (iphone 14 for example). Tech industry is clearly hitting hard limit on inflated price. Question is : Will "Tech" bubble explode??
It is official now : I'm putting my Sliger 620 (and mini ITX MB) to retirement!
I'm moving to Full ATX setups.
Here is my build log about N-ATX v2.
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...se-sfftime-n-atx-v2-complete-build-log.17997/
You will find full build log, comparison with Cerberus-X & Cats!
I'm moving to Full ATX setups.
Here is my build log about N-ATX v2.
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...se-sfftime-n-atx-v2-complete-build-log.17997/
You will find full build log, comparison with Cerberus-X & Cats!
