Skyreach S4M Ryzen/GTX 1060 brickless

alucard0712_rus

Cable Smoosher
Jan 27, 2018
12
1
Perfect size, definitely! You can get the 24V UHP-200-24 and that would probably work.

As far as a guide, you could probably ask around. I'm sure you can wire up the positive and negative wires to the meanwell easily. That's what I did with a gunique psu.

I just don't know anything about UHP-200. How do I connect it to the HDplex DC-ATX board?
 

Thirumal Kumaran

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jan 22, 2018
146
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I just don't know anything about UHP-200. How do I connect it to the HDplex DC-ATX board?

Wanted to move away from here... But this is one situation where i couldn't refuse from helping...

1. I run Meanwell UHP 200-24 with HDPLex 160 DC-DC System for the past 2-3 weeks without any issues. So, yes it works... and works wonderfully...
2. UHP 200 has 3 pin input and 4 pin output... We will worry about the 4 pins for now... named 1234... 12 are -ve and 34 are +ve .
3. The 4 pin - 4pin cable has 2 yellow lines for +ve and 2 black for -ve.. (Cross check this as it varies from batches) in short, the 2 wires close to the lock are +ve other is ground.
4. Trim the cables and join them toghether and connect to appropriate terminals in UHP 200.

By the way, double check and check again before you power on. and do not get into this stuff if you are not aware of what you are doing... (No offence)
 

SilverJS

Airflow Optimizer
Feb 8, 2018
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So - please forgive my ignorance, but although I see the advantage of using a MeanWell 200w with some of the cheaper Ali or eBay Pico dc-dc units from a cost perspective, I'm not sure I see the absolute avantage over an HDPLEX 160w dc-dc and ac-dc combo, especially with the newer revisions bring able to put out 200w peak. Understand the 12v vs 19v difference, but just taking about a strict usability and reliability standpoint.

Thanks!
 

Thehack

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So - please forgive my ignorance, but although I see the advantage of using a MeanWell 200w with some of the cheaper Ali or eBay Pico dc-dc units from a cost perspective, I'm not sure I see the absolute avantage over an HDPLEX 160w dc-dc and ac-dc combo, especially with the newer revisions bring able to put out 200w peak. Understand the 12v vs 19v difference, but just taking about a strict usability and reliability standpoint.

Thanks!

The difference is as follow:
1. The general circuit of an AC-DC PSU is the same. a 24V is pretty much the same as 12V. You do lose about 1% on efficiency, and perhaps require bigger heatsinks due to higher current cause more heat, but overall they're the same. If it takes $50 to produce a 400W AC-DC, then it would be the same for a 19V one, or a 12V.

2. The big difference lies in deriving the main 12V rail that your PC uses. In order to do this, you need a complex VRM circuit. This means more LCs, more mosfets, more ICs, bigger boards.

3. Using a 12V straight from the AC-DC means you don't have to do anything for the 12V rail. You just need to turn it on/off through a simple mosfet design. This means fewer components, fewer traces, smaller boards. ETC. The large components that you see on the Dynamo 360, are not even be necessary provided the AC-DC PSU is a good quality unit, if were 12V.

the following two products serve the general same purpose. One is a 12V unit, one is a 19V. Notice how the 12V is half the length.




The above 12V board purpose is to clean up out-spec AC-DC units, so people can be more creative with the power supply they use, while delivering reliable clean power. Of course, it's still a prototype.

If it were to be just a "control" board, you'd see may be a couple capacitors, but no large components and the board will be 80% taken up by connectors.

The reason that HDPLEX is well known in this community, is a lot through KMPKT efforts. He collabs with HDPLEX to help guide their products to benefit the sff community in general. HDPLEX has a built up supply chain and brand name. They can easily design and produce boards and have built up a very reliable reputation doing so.

The 12V PicoPSU is not as... noble. Most of the issue is due to a singular patent by Mini-BOX, that is, a single board attached to a 24 pin ATX. While they enjoy this patent, they do not care to cater to our community. I have to reached out to them, and asked them for collab/custom design, but they said they want a 5000 MOQ. I don't think we even have that many active members.

Because of their patents, there have been a lack of cohesion in the 12V camp. Recently, after a year of frustration, I hope to come out with competing products that are pure 12V. Simpler, straight forward, reliable. I don't think I can quite hit the same price point as HDPLEX, due to their established supply chain and customers, but I can at least provide a very SFF orientated designs for the community. If I had their supply chain, the HDPLEX 160 can be produced cheaper, or more margins for more R&D. And to be honest, I think HDPLEX charges very reason prices for such premium/niche products.

And yes, there will be a 250W Plugin DC board to compete with HDPLEX 160. It'll have to take some workarounds to get pass the patent, but it'll be done. Above 250W, I think having two boards is better.

-thx for reading my long ass post if you made it to the end-
 
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cleveland

Master of Cramming
Sep 8, 2016
439
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And yes, there will be a 250W Plugin DC board to compete with HDPLEX 160. It'll have to take some workarounds to get pass the patent, but it'll be done. Above 250W, I think having two boards is better.

I'll be watching you, Sir.

CLOSELY.
 

Josh | NFC

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Jun 12, 2015
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The difference is as follow:
1. The general circuit of an AC-DC PSU is the same. a 24V is pretty much the same as 12V. You do lose about 1% on efficiency, and perhaps require bigger heatsinks due to higher current cause more heat, but overall they're the same. If it takes $50 to produce a 400W AC-DC, then it would be the same for a 19V one, or a 12V.

2. The big difference lies in deriving the main 12V rail that your PC uses. In order to do this, you need a complex VRM circuit. This means more LCs, more mosfets, more ICs, bigger boards.

3. Using a 12V straight from the AC-DC means you don't have to do anything for the 12V rail. You just need to turn it on/off through a simple mosfet design. This means fewer components, fewer traces, smaller boards. ETC. The large components that you see on the Dynamo 360, are not even be necessary provided the AC-DC PSU is a good quality unit, if were 12V.

the following two products serve the general same purpose. One is a 12V unit, one is a 19V. Notice how the 12V is half the length.




The above 12V board purpose is to clean up out-spec AC-DC units, so people can be more creative with the power supply they use, while delivering reliable clean power. Of course, it's still a prototype.

If it were to be just a "control" board, you'd see may be a couple capacitors, but no large components and the board will be 80% taken up by connectors.

The reason that HDPLEX is well known in this community, is a lot through KMPKT efforts. He collabs with HDPLEX to help guide their products to benefit the sff community in general. HDPLEX has a built up supply chain and brand name. They can easily design and produce boards and have built up a very reliable reputation doing so.

The 12V PicoPSU is not as... noble. Most of the issue is due to a singular patent by Mini-BOX, that is, a single board attached to a 24 pin ATX. While they enjoy this patent, they do not care to cater to our community. I have to reached out to them, and asked them for collab/custom design, but they said they want a 5000 MOQ. I don't think we even have that many active members.

Because of their patents, there have been a lack of cohesion in the 12V camp. Recently, after a year of frustration, I hope to come out with competing products that are pure 12V. Simpler, straight forward, reliable. I don't think I can quite hit the same price point as HDPLEX, due to their established supply chain and customers, but I can at least provide a very SFF orientated designs for the community. If I had their supply chain, the HDPLEX 160 can be produced cheaper, or more margins for more R&D. And to be honest, I think HDPLEX charges very reason prices for such premium/niche products.

And yes, there will be a 250W Plugin DC board to compete with HDPLEX 160. It'll have to take some workarounds to get pass the patent, but it'll be done. Above 250W, I think having two boards is better.

-thx for reading my long ass post if you made it to the end-

Great write-up.

Way way back in the day (2008) when I had a dream for using these teeny power supplies for my builds I ran into Mini-Box. I harassed them for years, emailing their engineers and trying to get them to understand my needs. It got to the point I was converting all the customers for the system integration companies I was working with to use their units so I could get decent enough buying power just to get their engineers to talk to me on the phone.

It wasn't a total failure...at least we got the 160XT out of it. But as you say it is really nice to have HDPLEX work so closely with our community, and I am thankful for KMPKT because he is in constant communication with Larry. I'm also really grateful for Larry as he contacts me and provides 3D and works with me to make sure his products work in the MINI and keeps me up to date with samples and revisions.

I'm not sure where Gary fits in as a power supply company or modder, but he is definitely my favorite modder out there, and I am a HUGE fan. I'm super glad we have Craig, Larry, Gary, and everyone else who bleeds for this forum in pursuit of SFF PSU innovation. It's incredible to see that when I first started doing these mods people literally ridiculed me at shows and now there is an entire market around these amazing products.

Awesome.
 

SilverJS

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Feb 8, 2018
241
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@Thehack : Agreed with Josh, great write-up. I guess I'm failing to see why it is then that nobody until very recently (as far as I'm aware, Gury is the first to have done this) did 12v? Seems to me that, unless I'm missing something (which I quite likely am!), that there are NO losses to be had at all, or nothing to be given up, for going 12v - smaller, leaner, cheaper, less heat, etc...so why is everything else stuck on 19v or 24v?

The other question I have is exactly how your proposed board fits in to the whole scheme, and how that would help in a case like the S4M...but, I'll reserve that for your actual product thread as I fear I've already derailed this current thread enough.

I'd just like to conclude with this : @Josh | NFC, I am truly saddened to hear you were actually ridiculed - I'm sorry you had to go through that. All I can say is, I sure am glad you persisted! You, good Sir, have my thanks.
 

Thehack

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@Thehack : Agreed with Josh, great write-up. I guess I'm failing to see why it is then that nobody until very recently (as far as I'm aware, Gury is the first to have done this) did 12v? Seems to me that, unless I'm missing something (which I quite likely am!), that there are NO losses to be had at all, or nothing to be given up, for going 12v - smaller, leaner, cheaper, less heat, etc...so why is everything else stuck on 19v or 24v?

Thanks.

Well, it's mainly because Mini-box has the patent on it, and that no one really explored it as an SFF enthusiast product. It was mostly a platform for car PCs or small integrated units. When someone DID try to approach it as an enthusiast platform (Josh) he was ignored and shrugged off, as I'm sure a couple others have tried.

And yes, there are little to no losses. If you expand the board, you can easily pump 400W out of it, provided you have the AC-DC to back it up, as Gury has done.

Gury does skirt some legality issues as it would be patent infringement if he sold it in the USA officially. His board does have the limitation of only soldered wiring to save space. It also not a manufactured board with proper documentation and official testing so it's not end-user friendly unless you're looking for a 12V solution specifically.

To TRULY change the scene of SFF and 12V, one would have to make a complete solution from AC-DC to Plugin, to Distro boards. Of course, most of us are approaching this form the enthusiast side, so it hardly makes any business sense, we're low in numbers and won't meet any MOQ out there. HDPLEX can afford to approach it based on their HTPC and Fanless business side.
 
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Josh | NFC

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@Thehack : Agreed with Josh, great write-up. I guess I'm failing to see why it is then that nobody until very recently (as far as I'm aware, Gury is the first to have done this) did 12v? Seems to me that, unless I'm missing something (which I quite likely am!), that there are NO losses to be had at all, or nothing to be given up, for going 12v - smaller, leaner, cheaper, less heat, etc...so why is everything else stuck on 19v or 24v?

The other question I have is exactly how your proposed board fits in to the whole scheme, and how that would help in a case like the S4M...but, I'll reserve that for your actual product thread as I fear I've already derailed this current thread enough.

I'd just like to conclude with this : @Josh | NFC, I am truly saddened to hear you were actually ridiculed - I'm sorry you had to go through that. All I can say is, I sure am glad you persisted! You, good Sir, have my thanks.


I'm not an electrical engineer like Thehack (and other masters on this forum) but I suspect the main reason we see 19v+ PSU systems is because you can use thinner gauge wire because your run less amperage through it P(ower in watts) = V(olts) * I (current in amps). The idea is if you increase voltage you need less amps to get the same watts. In the REAL WORLD this means the DC jack can be made smaller. The big bottleneck from my own experimenting is the DC jack which usually melts first.

Look at Gary's units for example...for the same wattage as the Dell 330 you have an 8 pin molex. Not nearly as neat.

That's just how I can explain it practically through the magic blue smoke and charred plastic sessions I've experienced. We can get around this by using beefier 12v connections and heavier wire going to our DC-DC distributor.

Peace
 

Thehack

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I'm not an electrical engineer like Thehack (and other masters on this forum) but I suspect the main reason we see 19v+ PSU systems is because you can use thinner gauge wire because your run less amperage through it P(ower in watts) = V(olts) * I (current in amps). The idea is if you increase voltage you need less amps to get the same watts. In the REAL WORLD this means the DC jack can be made smaller. The big bottleneck from my own experimenting is the DC jack which usually melts first.

Look at Gary's units for example...for the same wattage as the Dell 330 you have an 8 pin molex. Not nearly as neat.

That's just how I can explain it practically through the magic blue smoke and charred plastic sessions I've experienced. We can get around this by using beefier 12v connections and heavier wire going to our DC-DC distributor.

Peace

I don't it's the connector that is the issue. We can always engineer a better connector than what we need. The RC/Drone community has figured that out long time ago. I think it's just simpler to use off the shelf 19V adapters that are common for laptops. When you're working with smaller power, a small VRM circuit is not considerably difficult and is offset by the easily available 19V adapters. But I think HDPLEX is kind of stuck with it since it powers their whole HTPC platform and now they're on the 19V train with their monstrous 400W HDPLEX. I think if they had a chance to start over, they'd create a separate line for us enthusiasts.

And I'm not an electrical engineer :p, electronics technician. Engineers design stuff, end-users break them, we fix them.
 

Josh | NFC

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Like you said, its not an ISSUE because we can just use a beefier jack. Modding is fun! :D

But you do need to use a beefier jack when working with 12v as opposed to 19v watt for watt. I'm not an engineer, but I have alot of real world testing and connector melting back when there just were not good off the shelf solutions :)

I can say if you tried to use a 12v PSU with 300w output with a 7.4mm x5mm barrel jack you will melt the jack 100% We've even seen it happen (rarely) with heavy 19v builds on this forum. I don't think its even safe to run a 1080ti off a 7.4x5mm barrel jack even though it is possible with the Omen X brick or the LA330, which is why I have different power solutions recommended on my website. You could see the jack reach 90C, and that is just not good. XD

Peace
 

Thehack

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Like you said, its not an ISSUE because we can just use a beefier jack. Modding is fun! :D

But you do need to use a beefier jack when working with 12v as opposed to 19v watt for watt. I'm not an engineer, but I have alot of real world testing and connector melting back when there just were not good off the shelf solutions :)

I can say if you tried to use a 12v PSU with 300w output with a 7.4mm x5mm barrel jack you will melt the jack 100% We've even seen it happen (rarely) with heavy 19v builds on this forum. I don't think its even safe to run a 1080ti off a 7.4x5mm barrel jack even though it is possible with the Omen X brick or the LA330, which is why I have different power solutions recommended on my website. You could see the jack reach 90C, and that is just not good. XD

Peace

Absolutely. I think that's why Gury using XT90 is a very good move. I also like HDPLEX's use of Mega-Fit (23A lines) so I may use that in the future. That's also why i used industrial terminal connectors on the Distro board. Takes the fuss out of terminals. Rated 33A. I just didn't want to pin it on the connector, as some of the older desktop replacement laptops, were already using 6 pin mini-fit or dual 7.4 for 300W.

Anyways... I agree... let's stop crashing this thread. :>
 

Thirumal Kumaran

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jan 22, 2018
146
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So - please forgive my ignorance, but although I see the advantage of using a MeanWell 200w with some of the cheaper Ali or eBay Pico dc-dc units from a cost perspective, I'm not sure I see the absolute avantage over an HDPLEX 160w dc-dc and ac-dc combo, especially with the newer revisions bring able to put out 200w peak. Understand the 12v vs 19v difference, but just taking about a strict usability and reliability standpoint.

Thanks!
I might be able to pitch in in this case, as i had used both hdplex 160 and meanwell 200. The main reason for me to switch is the availbility of extra 40w.
Though i have the "new" 160 ac dc. Still the nominal is rated 160. It tripped twice with a 1060 6gb and 8700. But meanwell was able to run it just fine.. and had a tad better thermals.
For me the difference is running a 1050ti vs 1060 in brickless mode...
 

Zackmd1

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Jun 3, 2016
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I might be able to pitch in in this case, as i had used both hdplex 160 and meanwell 200. The main reason for me to switch is the availbility of extra 40w.
Though i have the "new" 160 ac dc. Still the nominal is rated 160. It tripped twice with a 1060 6gb and 8700. But meanwell was able to run it just fine.. and had a tad better thermals.
For me the difference is running a 1050ti vs 1060 in brickless mode...

Spot on. Just because the HDPLEX can handle peaks up to 200 watts does not mean it should be run consistently at above 160 watts. A 1060 system with a 65 watt cpu sits just in the range of 180-190 while gaming with no system tweaking. The Meanwell can handle this with ease where as the HDPLEX might struggle here and there.

Personally, I have only had one recent power cycle with the Meanwell and that was due to an unknown power spike (still trying to figure out where the spike came from) but I was gaming when it occurred.
 

SilverJS

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Feb 8, 2018
241
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You're absolutely right, apologies - only had to scroll up a bit, as it turns out!

I seem to recall your voicing concerns over the lack of a ground with this PSU. You seem to have found something to alleviate that concern, because you're running a C6 connector - so what did you end up doing after all?

EDIT : never mind, C6 is the coverleaf. Got C6 and c8 confused there.
 
Last edited:

Thirumal Kumaran

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jan 22, 2018
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You're absolutely right, apologies - only had to scroll up a bit, as it turns out!

I seem to recall your voicing concerns over the lack of a ground with this PSU. You seem to have found something to alleviate that concern, because you're running a C6 connector - so what did you end up doing after all?
Grounding....!!!. Thats a line i dont want to tread again...
One more advantage of meanwell is EMI filter is in-built to the unit so i can use a generic c6 without any issues...
 

Choidebu

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Aug 16, 2017
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And, remind me again please - for @Thirumal Kumaran and @Zackmd1 what dc-dc units are you guys running these MeanWells with? The eBay/Ali ones?
These Meanwells have multiple SKUs for different voltages. They're primarily designed for thin LED displays (dot matrix huge ones) and the voltage ranges from 3.3V (40A!! :confused:) all the way to 48V.
The SKU format is UHP-(wattage)-(voltage)

This is the link to the product page and specs for the 200W

The ones they use to pair with hdplex, I believe is the 24V ones. So UHP-200-24.

Be careful when pairing this with ebay/ali 12V picos, their ripple is out of ATX spec (250mv p2p IIRC), so if your cheap picos doesn't do ripple smoothing who knows what might happen to your board.

Edit: oh gosh I just remembered @petricor 's dual psu build - he was using the 12V one wired straight to the gpu! Hope the card doesn't suffer...
 
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