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S4MAX: Brickless S4M w/ 3090 FE and R9 5950x - 800W, 5l, water cooled

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
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May 12, 2018
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Have you considered doing the thermal tape and aluminium sheeting over the entire of the back of the graphics card, or perhaps just adding it to the areas behind the VRM?

@Windfall has got me thinking that this could be compiled into a video. It depends what kind of resolution the photos you have are. In the simplest form it could be a slide show with a text overlay, but if the photos are higher resolution you could keyframe movement into them, add narration, a bit of music. It's looking epic in my head already! ?

Re backplate -
Yep, I have - simply didn't have enough aluminium sheeting at hand!
I plan a "stage 2" to this build - that's including custom machined parts - predominantly to make room for full-height ram (currently my infinity fabric clock is constrained by the limits of the ULP ram I am using), and that will require a custom port module for the gpu water block, and potentially some heat pipes to take care of that annoying southbridge fan noise - and another thought is to design a custom full-cover 2mm backplate.

So if anyone has a detailed record of pocket/ pad dimensions on 20xx backplates or even a 3d model of one as a starting point, please let me know - would make outcomes much more predictable!

Re video: That would be new territory for me... may take a few more months of self-quarantine to get around to doing that!
 
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Syncro

Caliper Novice
Nov 13, 2019
21
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I plan a "stage 2" to this build - that's including custom machined parts - predominantly to make room for full-height ram (currently my infinity fabric clock is constrained by the limits of the ULP ram I am using), and that will require a custom port module for the gpu water block
Hey, have you considered overclocking the RAM instead? That sounds to me like it could potentially be the path of least resistance in that case. If I see it correctly, those should be KVR26N19D8L/16 modules. I've seen multiple of the single rank version of those overclock to 3600MT/s easily (Edit: It's Hynix JJR, yeah 3600 should be achievable)
 
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petricor

Airflow Optimizer
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May 12, 2018
347
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Hey, have you considered overclocking the RAM instead? That sounds to me like it could potentially be the path of least resistance in that case. If I see it correctly, those should be KVR26N19D8L/16 modules. I've seen multiple of the single rank version of those overclock to 3600MT/s easily (Edit: It's Hynix JJR, yeah 3600 should be achievable)
VERY good point! I shall try and report back!
 

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
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May 12, 2018
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So, I have been playing with RAM speeds and the DRAM calculator so see how far I can push my 2666-CL19 ULP RAM:


This is how far I got it - 3333 MHZ CL24 - so still missing the mark with re to fabric clock and at rather loose timings.

Interesting phenomenon: I got some uplift in my time spy score...


This compares to 13606 as in my "PPL round 3" benchmark with stock ram speeds, but strangely...


...its an uplift in CPU speed, not graphics - and when running Cinebench, I consistently score 200 points lower than before! No way to reach my score of 9529 as in runs with stock ram speeds - so I assume the loose timing takes its toll, and only so running cinebench; time spy's cpu speed seems to benefit.

So for the moment, I leave it at stock speed for daily use as I'm biased towards 3D performance - and the key takeaway from this comparison is that I still have a little custom water block port module project on my shopping list to make space for "proper" RAM!

Temps, in general, are high but check out - low 80's for the GPU and high 70's for the CPU under stress, so the single 140mm radiator copes. The screenshot below is taken towards the end of a second consecutive loop of time spy.

I guess the massive compute resource that the 3950x represents contributes to a scenario where I will hardly ever see both CPU and GPU maxed-out concurrently - the CPU never goes beyond 70% in any 3D benchmark, and the 2080ti and the Ryzen appear to rather peacefully co-exist on the same loop in real-life scenarios.

The only concern I see is the southbridge with the x570 - hits 90 degrees... that thing needs some work. Not sure how much heat it's designed to take, but even with a dedicated fan blowing directly at it, it seems to become a bit of a worry - pretty certainly a result of the fan being nowhere near fresh air and happily stirring hot matter. Heatpipes would appear to be the way forward...

And then: the NOISE. More on that in my next update...
 

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
Original poster
Bronze Supporter
May 12, 2018
347
1,851

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
Original poster
Bronze Supporter
May 12, 2018
347
1,851
So, noise:
When writing earlier that the Delta 40x15 mm fan I have used to replace the 15,000 rpm jet engine coming with the Supermicro PSU would be barely audible, that's with no load to the system: As I use a fan spoofer with static frequency, I'm now stuck in a scenario where the fan is either at hardly audible minimum speed or, when some heat kicks in, revs up all the way to maximum speed (and that's not pretty) until temperatures are back to minimum levels. This behaviour is a direct result of the spoofing logic permanently outputting minimum revs as fake feedback from the fan, and the controller constantly increasing the requested speed seeking a faster tacho return signal as soon as heat goes beyond the minimum threshold, ultimately all the way up to maximum speed - when all it wants to do is to turn things up a little to meet with the fan curve. Luckily, its satisfied with giving the fan all it has and does not shut down in the absence of getting the desired target revolutions.

Two solutions here: Plan A - picking a fan that is inaudible at maximum speed, or, Plan B, implanting an adaptive logic outputting a spoofed tacho signal proportional to fan speed.

I prepare for both: Trying the simple method first, and also ordering a coin-sized Arduino board (has some lead-in) that should do the trick with a tiny bit of code documented here, in case a silent fan cannot deal with peak loads.

The baseline is current temps. After testing things a bit, pretty close to stock settings, I get temperatures as expected to be on the high end of what's workable:


Highest temp I have recorded at the radiator, throwing pretty much everything at it, is 50 deg C, under normal benchmark loads it's closer to 45, and the PSU's case is operating in the low-40's, peaking at around 45.



Overall, I get pretty consistent temperatures all over the case, meaning heat distribution works well and takes off the edge from very hot components.


Whilst at it, I'll also tackle the unbearable whine of the southbridge fan coming with the AsRock mITX/ TB3: Enter two fresh Noctua A4x10 PWM fans.


Interestingly, the throughput is only 5% below the A4x20 I have used for my earlier PSU mods, so the reduction in size does not come with much of a performance penalty - assumingly owed to the better hub-to-blade ratio when compared to the A4x20.

After getting the PSU out...



...I tackle the internals for a straight-forward 1:1 swap.


The Noctua has a slightly lower centre hub diameter and is 10 instead of 15mm deep, creating a recess in front of the intake, which should both help with airflow as the PSU sits bang-on at the radiator - possibly the better clearance and larger exposed cross-section can compensate for the lower overall performance.

A tiny cut to the fan...



...allows for the PSU's status LED to fit in one of the mounting holes...

...and after a bit of soldering the new fan is attached to the spoofing circuit built earlier.



PSU done - with the 5mm recess visible...



...and this slightly blurry shot showing how it will help with airflow in a rather tight corner of the build.

Next up is digging out the whining southbridge fan buried under the PCIe cable and GPU.


The second A4x10 should be another straight swap...


...fitting directly in front of the PCIe slot and secured to the salvaged heat sink I have used to replace the original and very bulky ASRock heat sink assembly.


The Noctua A4x10's connector cable goes into the last free 4-pin PWM fan header on the board and has exactly the right length, so no modifications required, leaving the original 3-pin fan header for the southbridge fan unused.


Job done - looks like before - and SILENCE!
Now the loudest noise source is the pretty silent DCLT-2600 pump... that's something I can happily live with!



...and stressing things with a few rounds of benchmarks I even get slightly lower temps on the PSU compared to before! The hypothesis here is that net airflow is actually higher than with the 15mm Delta fan, as the improved intake clearances overcompensate for the lower fan performance - or it might simply be slightly lower ambient temps and a PSU that is not really near its maximum load. I expect the build to not exceed 500W at peak performance in absence of a big overclocking potential owed to the tight cooling capacity - giving the 800W PSU a pretty leisurely job description. Plus it has an overheat protection circuit - so worst case is it switching off for a cool-down, but it would appear to be far from breaking sweat.
 
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richi-123

Cable Smoosher
Jul 29, 2018
9
3
excellent job modifying the psu, changing ps_on and 5vsb is something that would not have occurred to me (I would have looked for some circuit to turn it on sequentially?)

It is a good data for future compilations with multiple psu or a system with batteries as ups
 
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catawalks

Average Stuffer
Dec 17, 2019
62
88
@petricor Where did you order the FESTO fittings and tubing from? I like these smaller push-in style fittings and the tubing diameter seems right for a build I'm working on. But everywhere I find to buy tubing from only has 50m+ and G1/8 fittings maxing out at 8mm OD.

Also, when you research PSU internals to be able to verify it will fit inside the spacial limit you have, do you manage to find PCB dimensions or internal diagrams of the PSU?

Nice work on the build so far, btw. It's practically a completely finished build but you still have a stage 2 in you. Crazy.
 

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
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May 12, 2018
347
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@petricor Where did you order the FESTO fittings and tubing from? I like these smaller push-in style fittings and the tubing diameter seems right for a build I'm working on. But everywhere I find to buy tubing from only has 50m+ and G1/8 fittings maxing out at 8mm OD.

Also, when you research PSU internals to be able to verify it will fit inside the spacial limit you have, do you manage to find PCB dimensions or internal diagrams of the PSU?

Nice work on the build so far, btw. It's practically a completely finished build but you still have a stage 2 in you. Crazy.
Hey there,

I got the fittings from thorite.co.uk - eventually, you'll have to look for industry suppliers to get the full range of products. Key is researching all part numbers on the Festo site first - it's a whole universe of parts. I went with the NPQH fittings (primarily due to looks - but also as they handle temps >70 degrees) and PUN-H tubing; there are other alternatives with even more compact footprint; key is to make sure they have a liquid rating and a temperature rating that's comfortably accomodating for what you have in mind.

Re the PSUs: It's trial-and-error, really, plus some plausibility checks looking at photographs. There is close to zero documentation available for server PSUs as they are all proprietary vendor designs - it also means you'll have to work out the pin-out unless you have precedent. I had another candidate from MuRata lined up, but as another forum member confirmed, the PCB extends through the full length so no luck there. There's also a 400W version from supermicro (PWS 406p-1r) looking near-identical to the 606p, so there's that plus the confirmed 606p and the 804p that @Piewalker bought at risk and confirmed to work - its what I use now.

And re stage 2: Just checked in to my chipset temps today: 102 degC on the Z570! I better come up with something soon - reading into heat pipes now... grateful for any links to good resources or precedent!
 

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
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May 12, 2018
347
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FYI

Optimum Tech asked people to post ITX builds on Twitter for an upcoming video, and I've tweeted a link to this one. I'm not sure how many he'll cover, or what criteria will be used to pick from the many many replies, but I'd love to see this build featured.

Here's the tweet, and my reply:

...and thanks for posting this!
 

catawalks

Average Stuffer
Dec 17, 2019
62
88
Hey there,

I got the fittings from thorite.co.uk - eventually, you'll have to look for industry suppliers to get the full range of products. Key is researching all part numbers on the Festo site first - it's a whole universe of parts. I went with the NPQH fittings (primarily due to looks - but also as they handle temps >70 degrees) and PUN-H tubing; there are other alternatives with even more compact footprint; key is to make sure they have a liquid rating and a temperature rating that's comfortably accomodating for what you have in mind.

Re the PSUs: It's trial-and-error, really, plus some plausibility checks looking at photographs. There is close to zero documentation available for server PSUs as they are all proprietary vendor designs - it also means you'll have to work out the pin-out unless you have precedent. I had another candidate from MuRata lined up, but as another forum member confirmed, the PCB extends through the full length so no luck there. There's also a 400W version from supermicro (PWS 406p-1r) looking near-identical to the 606p, so there's that plus the confirmed 606p and the 804p that @Piewalker bought at risk and confirmed to work - its what I use now.

And re stage 2: Just checked in to my chipset temps today: 102 degC on the Z570! I better come up with something soon - reading into heat pipes now... grateful for any links to good resources or precedent!

I'll have a look through their site. At first glance they also don't offer G1/8 for 10mm OD tubing in either the high temp fittings or the standard metal fittings. I'll keep looking though. Do you happen to have a part number by chance? The largest diameter I can find is 8mm which is NPQH-L-G18-Q8-P10. Unless maybe it's a discontinued product and isn't listed in FESTOs PDF of NPQH fittings anymore. https://www.festo.com/cat/en-gb_gb/data/doc_ENGB/PDF/EN/NPQH_EN.PDF

And that's the same issue I had when looking for PSUs, glad to know the struggle is real and I wasn't just missing some easily searchable database. lol.

Are you planning to bend your own heat pipes for the chipset cooler while making a cold plate and fin stack for them? Or were you thinking of using a pre-existing part, e.g. a laptop cooler, that fits your particular needs?
 

petricor

Airflow Optimizer
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May 12, 2018
347
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I'll have a look through their site. At first glance they also don't offer G1/8 for 10mm OD tubing in either the high temp fittings or the standard metal fittings. I'll keep looking though. Do you happen to have a part number by chance? The largest diameter I can find is 8mm which is NPQH-L-G18-Q8-P10. Unless maybe it's a discontinued product and isn't listed in FESTOs PDF of NPQH fittings anymore. https://www.festo.com/cat/en-gb_gb/data/doc_ENGB/PDF/EN/NPQH_EN.PDF

And that's the same issue I had when looking for PSUs, glad to know the struggle is real and I wasn't just missing some easily searchable database. lol.

Are you planning to bend your own heat pipes for the chipset cooler while making a cold plate and fin stack for them? Or were you thinking of using a pre-existing part, e.g. a laptop cooler, that fits your particular needs?

Indeed, you're right: Went through my orders again - I used 8mm OD in the end. Did some research at the time and most water-cooled servers go for rather small diameters, with 8mm OD being fairly common, so I didn't expect the 8/6mm tubing to become a bottleneck.

Here are the parts I have used:

NPQH-L-G18-Q8-P10 - G1/8 to 8mm OD elbow fitting, nickel-plated brass (for CPU block and custom radiator fitting)
NPQH-L-G14-Q8-P10 - G1/4 to 8mm OD elbow fitting, nickel-plated brass (for pump/res and GPU block with standard G1/4 fittings)
NPQH-D-G18-Q8-P10 - G1/8 to 8mm OD straight fitting, nickel-plated brass
NPQH-D-G14-Q8-P10 - G1/4 to 8mm OD straight fitting, nickel-plated brass
...along with 8mm OD PUN-H tubing.

A very interesting alternative is the QS series - not as flashy (black/blue/silver), but the QSLV-G1/4-8-I beats anything when it comes to a compact G1/4 elbow.
 
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|||

King of Cable Management
Sep 26, 2015
775
759
Incredible build! You're putting the extra space @Josh | NFC put into S4M vs the S4M-C to good use!

I just saw this video, which was posted a few days ago and thought of your project, where there's a fight for every millimeter and degree.

It's a custom AM4 mounting bracket (not the one shown in the video thumbnail), which allows the block to be shifted by a few millimeters in any direction. The primary purpose is to align the center of the block with the hottest point on the heat spreader, which is not the center of the heat spreader for Ryzen 3000 CPUs.

However, in the case of this build, a few millimeters may be what's needed to make something fit, and if there is some play available to improve temperatures, then that's an advantage too.


Here's the link to the store where it's sold:

https://www.caseking.de/en/der8auer-ryzen-3000-oc-bracket-custom-mount-fsd8-034.html

I hope everything is proceeding well, and hope to see an update soon!

Unfortunately, the assumption that the center of the waterblock is the coolest means that this is only applicable to jet impingment style blocks that have jet plates with slits to guide the inlet fluid to the center of the block. This Annihilator block flows side-to-side (as you can see in the tear down, quoted below)...you'd really just put the inlet of the block on the side of the chiplets to maximize the thermal gradient over them to optimize the performance of that block on AMD processors.

 

catawalks

Average Stuffer
Dec 17, 2019
62
88
A very interesting alternative is the QS series - not as flashy (black/blue/silver), but the QSLV-G1/4-8-I beats anything when it comes to a compact G1/4 elbow.

I'm definitely going to have a look at those later. I am very limited in space and can use every bit I can get.

Do you happen to have drawings of the G1/8 adapters you had made for the radiator?