Well said.Your not going to stop people copying designs and I don't think it should be the responsibility of the forum staff to police which designs can and can't be posted on here, I agree with their stance on this subject.
It is up to the community to back up and support the innovation, I don't believe that this voice of the community should be censored. As others have said, if someone is plagiarising then they should be called out for it and discouraged to do so, as long as it's done in a constructive and civil manner. The cream will rise to the top and gain adoption from the community naturally.
My take on this has alway been that if you want create a product that is "inspired" by another, then you should put some effort into the aesthetics and functionality, differentiate your product so that it brings something new to the table.
If you don't, then accept the criticism.
I don't agree that there is only so many ways you can make something look.
Sometimes how you say something is just as important as what it is that you are trying to say. Shit posting, thread jacking and flame warring are not how this conversation is had. SFFn is a place where an open and honest discourse around this topic can happen but it has to happen in a way that isnt hostile and demeaning. No one is going to be convinced that way, all it does is drive people off the forum. When I say this I dont just mean the people who you may feel are in breach but also new members & existing members. People w/ new ideas to share, new projects to showcase and new perspectives to discuss will simply take their conversation elsewhere when they see other threads that have devolved into the digital equivalent of a witch hunt, regardless of why its happened. The internet is forever & we, as a community, need to stand above the hostility and aggression that plagues some other areas of the internet. I'll admit, I am just as guilty as next man when it comes to dragging down the quality of the conversation around a topic I am passionate about. I regret these instances immensely and try to learn from them. At the end of the day I convinced no one. All i did was make myself look like a dick waving moron and trash an otherwise valuable conversation. We need to do better and be better than that if we stand any chance of actually changing how people perceive and think about the problems this space faces.2. The sometimes over zealous feedback from admins. One minute its ok to say something, the next its not ok. Calling something a clone because it soooooooooooo similar to the original should not have your comment deleted. My clone comment was part of a wider discussions about shipping delays on the louqe. There needs to be a more joined up approach. I appreciate that its difficult to please everyone but there needs to be more consistency.
Thanks for that information about the signatures, didn't know it. Now I need a Machintosh.jØrd's avatar reminded me of a relevant and beautiful piece of design history. The inside of every original Macintosh has the signatures of the team molded in it. The Macintosh is culturally significant not because of the plastic and metal it was made out of, but the ideas that formed it, and in return, the countless ideas it would generate.
Without true innovation, we go nowhere, as Josh stated. I think that discouraging clones is good, as it encourages innovation. If every car manufacturer used the first gas engine, we would all be getting terrible gas mileage (and no power).@jØrd
Pardon me if I misunderstood you--but it seems you are making the assumption I stopped participating in design discussions here because I am worried about clones. I'm not a smart guy--I'm the first to admit it. But even I can see that clones are going to happen, and I also welcome fair, unregulated competition in an uncensored marketplace.
My problem is that the majority of people on this forum do not care about the value of ideas.
"There are only so many ways to do X."
"It's not the layout that is valuable, it is the look."
"It's not the design that is valuable, its the metal."
"As long as they change how the vents look then it's different."
"You can't claim vents as your own look."
"If it uses different materials, then it is a different design."
"You can't own ideas--your ideas belong to everyone."
I don't think ideas should be selfishly hoarded, but is someone really going to make that claim against me? I upload 3D of my projects and cases. I make videos showing alternatives to my products and even provide lists of different vendors. I spend hundreds of hours helping other SFF parts providers grow and increase their product lineup for everyone. I spend a dozen hours each week teaching and helping people build SFF computers. I've created a plug and play template for the business of several members on this forum, complete with the products, accessories, and customer base.
Ideas are part of my identity. If you discard that connection. You discard me. It's painful when it happens to me, and its painful when I see it happen to other people here.
I'll end this by reinforcing that I think the people on this forum are wonderful. I think the mods are good people--great people. I enjoy using this website to help new builders out and answer questions. But this is a platform where innovation is not respected, only the end product, and frankly, the SFF PC on your desk is not special because it is made out of metal. It's special because of the ideas that formed it.
I dont pretend to know what your motivations are but i do want you to be a part of the discussion. You posted in a thread about clones that you were no longer motivated to post on the forum w/ out any more context than that, i made some basic assumptions that were evidently incorrect. you have my apologies on that.Pardon me if I misunderstood you--but it seems you are making the assumption I stopped participating in design discussions here because I am worried about clones. I'm not a smart guy--I'm the first to admit it. But even I can see that clones are going to happen, and I also welcome fair, unregulated competition in an uncensored marketplace.
I certainly wouldn't make that case. I would hope my post went some way towards making quite the opposite impression.I don't think ideas should be selfishly hoarded, but is someone really going to make that claim against me? I upload 3D of my projects and cases. I make videos showing alternatives to my products and even provide lists of different vendors. I spend hundreds of hours helping other SFF parts providers grow and increase their product lineup for everyone. I spend a dozen hours each week teaching and helping people build SFF computers. I've created a plug and play template for the business of several members on this forum, complete with the products, accessories, and customer base.
It may seem that way but i would propose that its not entirely the case. There are certainly people on this forum who dont value innovation, in many cases it comes from a lack of understanding. I would say there are many more who do, they may be the silent majority though. No one ever makes noise because they agree or because a product works as advertised. Shunning these people who dont appear to value it, forcing them away doesnt solve that though. For sure there will be people who can never be convinced but there are people who can. James's stx160.0 project comes to mind as an example. An incredible quantity of people got thoroughly schooled in that thread. It served to educate and enlighten huge swathes of the community who otherwise would have never had any clue what actually goes into designing and building a custom case. it was a stepping stone for many more who wanted to get their ideas out of CAD and into metal. If we just accept that no one here cares about innovation then we will create a space where that is defiantly true because no one will be sharing what they feel is innovative because they think no one respects it or cares, in turn people who do care will look elsewhere for that content. I believe the term is "self fulfilling prophecy". As a community we need to rise above the chaos. Ignore the haters, educate those who wish to learn. We shouldn't be scared off from sharing new ideas, discussing new ways of doing things and trying new concepts because a bunch of haters make alot of noise. I implore you and anyone else here who has ideas they want to share to bring them to the front, stand tall above the haters, be the difference you want to see. W/out you people on the forum it would be less, w/out you people on the forum the community as a whole is less. SFFn will not take sides but it will stand by you when you speak your mind, it will provide a place to engage and share and it will always try to be fair and even. We are stronger together, we may not always see eye to eye but when we stand shoulder to shoulder we can move mountains.I'll end this by reinforcing that I think the people on this forum are wonderful. I think the mods are good people--great people. I enjoy using this website to help new builders out and answer questions. But this is a platform where innovation is not respected, only the end product, and frankly, the SFF PC on your desk is not special because it is made out of metal. It's special because of the ideas that formed it.
Well, you addressed this to me in addition to Josh, but I'm not sure how this is a response to what I wrote. If I didn't make myself clear, I apologize, and I guess I'll try again. Perhaps it was my usage of the phrase "call out?" I guess this is a chiefly American colloquialism, and IIRC you and several of the other mods are from the UK, Aus, NZ etc. It just means to criticize or draw attention to someone for doing something objectionable. See #3 and #4 at this definition.@Josh | NFC @Necere
I would like to propose a different way of thinking about this. First Im making the assumption that as long as you are selling product you are exposed to the clone market to some extent. This is an issue that is as old as manufacturing itself. I would make the case that discussion around clones is going to happen and that forcing that discussion off SFFn is actually counter productive to the goals of running a business selling product. My current understanding is fundimentally that here at SFFn the stance is essentially to allow open conversation about clones provided its not shit posting, thread jacking or flame warring. This is a forum where you guys carry significant influence and have a strong base of supporters. It is a place where you can be a part of that conversation, have insight into how your audience (and customers) think about this issue, contribute to and shape the conversation. There is no question that the product you guys produce is fantastic, second to none. Be a part of the conversation, have the confidence in what you do & how you do it and help shape and educate the community. Forcing the conversation off SFFn doesnt make the problem go away, it just moves it to somewhere else, somewhere where you dont have any visibility into, somewhere where you dont have the opportunity to present to people why you think the topic matters, somewhere where you dont get to shape how people think about the topic. Whilst it may seem counter intuitive i propose that having an open and honest discorse w/ your customers about this is far better for business than just shutting down the conversation and driving people away who, at the end of the day, may very well not have an understanding of the issue at hand. We've all seen the YouTube comments on indie case maker videos about how this product or that product would be perfect if it were $60 cheaper, 50mm wider and supported this new radiator that just came out. Ive seen you guys and other indie case makers work hard to do user education around the costs of lower quantity manufacturing, the challenges facing indie makers and why design decisions are made the way they are and the considerations that influence them. The indie case makers who are active on SFFn have done much to shape the way the community thinks about the challenges you guys face and by extension the people you have influenced go on to influence others, shape other conversations and make more informed buying choices as a result. I implore you and anyone else who sees discussion around clones as an existential threat to perhaps look at is an another opportunity to shape and influence how your customers and the community understand, think about and deal w/ this topic.
Lastly I want to make it 100% clear, in no uncertain terms, that this is very much my own personal view. Everything I have said is my own and in no way reflects the opinions or positions of SFFn, its staff or other moderators.