Is the "Console Killer" budget even a feasible idea?

JosephEK

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Mar 6, 2017
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I've seen people make PCs in the sub 10L volume that they call "console killer", but they add graphics cards to these systems that cost more than the price of a mainstream console itself. My problem is that cost per volume is one of the biggest advantages and arguments for consoles.

IMO you need to be running an APU or nothing more than an RX 460/GTX 1050 to dream of staying within budget. And what even is that budget? Do you include display, peripherals and OS software? And what peripherals wouldn't count? And would people use something like Ubuntu to negate OS cost? DIY cases also to save towards the budget?

I like working with budgets because it can present a fun challenge when it comes to hobbies as opposed to the budget of putting food on the table which can feel more solemn.

Maybe gaming PCs just can't keep up with that kind of cost mentality let alone turn it into SFF. I used to like to think in terms of price points like "no more than 500 dollars", but now I feel like it shouldn't even be attempted because even though they're both computers I feel like you detract from the PC's advantages in trying to meet the console's advantages.
 

zovc

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Jan 5, 2017
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I have thought about this a lot recently, actually. There's a lot of issues with the term "console killer."

Like you say, consoles present very good value but there actually are things that sometimes get taken for granted. "Oh, but I have to buy a monitor. Oh, but I have to buy a headset." Some of those things are--for one reason or another--given a pass for consoles. ("I already have a TV!") There's a bunch of fragmented debates that you need to have there before even getting into the actual base cost of the 'system.'

If a console is only a "system and a controller." for ~$400 (?), it's very difficult to go toe-to-toe with that value. If a console includes the ~$400-600+ TV, then you start being able really to go blow-for-blow because you can get a nice 24" monitor for about $200. The more you raise the budget, obviously, the more wiggle room you're going to have to edge out on the more customize-able front, PC.

If you're having the "PC vs Console" debate. I'm sure most of us here understand the pros that come with PCs, but it's easy to lose sight of how it does take effort and patience and investment to develop the skills and comfort to efficiently utilize and navigate a PC. People of pretty much any level of modern tech-savvy, I.E. "owns a smartphone" can figure out an Xbox One without needing to worry about Steam and EA Origin and "Is my Credit Card safe with these people?" and whatnot. I think the main driving force behind choosing one over the other is how much more intimidating everything pertaining to using (and building) a PC is. Not that any of it is hard, just that it's something you have to commit to and figure out.

Now, regarding budget system builds, the funny thing is that (up until this new line of '4K-ready' consoles) console gamers and PC games have had very different standards for visual fidelity. On a PC, you've got your own set up of hardware and you've got to tune every game's settings until you're happy with your framerate. On consoles, for nearly as long as they've been around, you take the visual fidelity the developers could achieve and you take your 30fps and you like it. This right here brings attention to one of the main issues with the idea of a "console killer."

It's not that hard to make a cheap PC that can run games at 720p 30fps, heck, my i7-4790K's iGPU can run the games of its time at that and nearly every generation of Intel CPUs since has tremendously improved the performance of iGPUs (relatively). But would I ever recommend someone play games at 720p 30fps? My PC gamer hands with their metaphoric Doritos-stains are shivering with anger and pretentiousness at just the thought of that performance!

Much like someone could build a system with only a 1TB HDD, 8GB of RAM, a Pentium G4560, and a GTX 1050, I have a hard time recommending that experience to someone. As enthusiasts, we're so eager to recommend or even push someone to upgrade to having a NVME SSD, 16GB of RAM, at least an i5... so on, because not only does it make an appreciable difference, but because we take pride and ownership in this stuff. It's a much different project and endeavor than 'just' getting a thing that can play some games.

That's my take on it all, anyways. My bias definitely leans towards PC gaming, but I have tried to take a step back and be reasonable/partisan about it.
 

JosephEK

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Yeah the display question is a very interesting one. When consoles came out they were designed around pre-existing television displays in people's homes. For PCs not many people prefer this.
But what if I threw a metaphoric wrench into the cogs of the equation:

HTPC

One could argue "If you're making a console killer, it should kill a console WHERE a console is implemented: the living room."
And that's where I agree with your assessment that PC has a hard time competing when you don't include display cost.

One thing where I differ from you I feel is that I have a sort of anti-compensation complex where I don't like to spend too many resources or dollars on something like a PC because I don't want to feel like I'm trying to be better than everyone else. Maybe I go too far to this end, IDK, but I love using budget or entry level equipment for a lot of things. It also helps remove stress of things breaking because it can be a huge setback to replace/upgrade from high end hardware.

That doesn't mean that I don't have the passion for new technology though, For example I'm using an RX 460 because I wanted to keep with the times and get the benefit of newer architectures and improved power efficiency without spending great amounts on GPUs costing more than 150 dollars that many people may not have access to.

A similar area I would like to upgrade to is from SATA drives to NVMe M.2 drives, but I'm still waiting for the price to come down because even the ~240GB drives cost too much if you ask me. As it is I've never used more than a single terabyte of storage and even now I use a single 500GB HDD combined with a 240GB SATA SSD. I will need to upgrade from my Ivy Bridge CPU to have compatability with this as well so I'm waiting for Ryzen APUs to come out probably early next year.
 
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Nosuchthing

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Feb 27, 2017
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One thing where I differ from you I feel is that I have a sort of anti-compensation complex I like to call "humbleness" where I don't like to spend too many resources or dollars on something like a PC because I don't want to feel like I'm trying to be better than everyone else.

That's kind of a poor response considering the thought out, well balanced and honest reply you received. You asked the question, on a PC forum, and when someone gives you an answer (with a full admittance of their own personal bias) you respond like that?
 

JosephEK

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That's kind of a poor response considering the thought out, well balanced and honest reply you received. You asked the question, on a PC forum, and when someone gives you an answer (with a full admittance of their own personal bias) you respond like that?
I apologize if I don't have a great way with words or thread structure, but is it bad that I share my own bias when others do? I felt that said bias for entry level or budget oriented hardware would help explain my interest in the console killer concept in the process.
 
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Kmpkt

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On a price level, I don't think you'll ever see a true "console killer". Just for fun I just went onto PCPartpicker and tried to make the cheapest rig I could and it was still over 700 USD.
 

Rysen

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Jan 13, 2017
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The whole point of the console is that this large corporation created the cheapest possible system with certain very specific requirements. They make money form the fact that they can mass produce the same set of equipment and sell them at lower prices than what people building their own can create. It is impossible for any single consumer to compete with this massive corporation when building a system. Therefore the term console killer did not come from being able to create a cheaper system that was similar to the console, but rather creating a system where you get better performance per dollar at the same size of a console. This is where the true console killer comes into play. Yes it is possible to create an htpc machine that has better performance per dollar than any console but that will usually require that you either buy something much more expensive or something a lot cheaper. Also console killer machines also take into account time. Consoles need to be changed over time which means spending about 400$ around every 4 years which in the long term is much more expensive than upgrading an HTPC computer with the same specs as the original consoled used for comparison.

So yes, a console killer build does exists but it is not what you think it is. Your question is more along the lines of: "Can I build a console at a cheaper price than what a billionaire company that has millions of customers can?" The answer to that is a solid no.
 

JosephEK

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I have thought about this a lot recently, actually. There's a lot of issues with the term "console killer."

Like you say, consoles present very good value but there actually are things that sometimes get taken for granted. "Oh, but I have to buy a monitor. Oh, but I have to buy a headset." Some of those things are--for one reason or another--given a pass for consoles. ("I already have a TV!") There's a bunch of fragmented debates that you need to have there before even getting into the actual base cost of the 'system.'

If a console is only a "system and a controller." for ~$400 (?), it's very difficult to go toe-to-toe with that value. If a console includes the ~$400-600+ TV, then you start being able really to go blow-for-blow because you can get a nice 24" monitor for about $200. The more you raise the budget, obviously, the more wiggle room you're going to have to edge out on the more customize-able front, PC.

If you're having the "PC vs Console" debate. I'm sure most of us here understand the pros that come with PCs, but it's easy to lose sight of how it does take effort and patience and investment to develop the skills and comfort to efficiently utilize and navigate a PC. People of pretty much any level of modern tech-savvy, I.E. "owns a smartphone" can figure out an Xbox One without needing to worry about Steam and EA Origin and "Is my Credit Card safe with these people?" and whatnot. I think the main driving force behind choosing one over the other is how much more intimidating everything pertaining to using (and building) a PC is. Not that any of it is hard, just that it's something you have to commit to and figure out.

Now, regarding budget system builds, the funny thing is that (up until this new line of '4K-ready' consoles) console gamers and PC games have had very different standards for visual fidelity. On a PC, you've got your own set up of hardware and you've got to tune every game's settings until you're happy with your framerate. On consoles, for nearly as long as they've been around, you take the visual fidelity the developers could achieve and you take your 30fps and you like it. This right here brings attention to one of the main issues with the idea of a "console killer."

It's not that hard to make a cheap PC that can run games at 720p 30fps, heck, my i7-4790K's iGPU can run the games of its time at that and nearly every generation of Intel CPUs since has tremendously improved the performance of iGPUs (relatively). But would I ever recommend someone play games at 720p 30fps? My PC gamer hands with their metaphoric Doritos-stains are shivering with anger and pretentiousness at just the thought of that performance!

Much like someone could build a system with only a 1TB HDD, 8GB of RAM, a Pentium G4560, and a GTX 1050, I have a hard time recommending that experience to someone. As enthusiasts, we're so eager to recommend or even push someone to upgrade to having a NVME SSD, 16GB of RAM, at least an i5... so on, because not only does it make an appreciable difference, but because we take pride and ownership in this stuff. It's a much different project and endeavor than 'just' getting a thing that can play some games.

That's my take on it all, anyways. My bias definitely leans towards PC gaming, but I have tried to take a step back and be reasonable/partisan about it.
In the light of my realization that I may not proof read carefully enough in my excitement to make a post I feel I should make a second reply:

I feel it will be really hard to ever make your own console killer because these proprietary systems if I understand correctly are mass produced or made in bulk in such a way that not only are the parts cheap, but because they have an entire recognized brand with a following, games will seemingly always be optimized for them first before all others. This is the insurmountable obstacle for the console killer the way I currently see it.

A PC in comparison is a more modular and versatile machine which to me says they're "similar, but different" so maybe we shouldn't be having the console VS PC debate in price/performance terms. A non-proprietary gaming HTPC even if it fills the same roles of a console should never be priced similarly in the first place and that they require their own price point, but the paradox I've run into is that even if you shouldn't try to compare the price/performance of the two you still can't make a unique price point because a modular PC doesn't have a set-in-stone price point.

So the dilemma is either cursed to exist forever until one type of machine isn't produced anymore or until I realize that the price point for the more modular PC platform is whatever I want it to be, it just can't beat a console because I don't have the resources of a corporation behind me. What is "whatever I want it to be"? I guess to me that just means as cheap as possible while reaching 60+FPS at 1920x1080p for every game I play. Considering my most demanding title is currently Planetside 2 I would estimate that MY console killer price would probably rest somewhere around 500-800 dollars.

I hope this is more worthy a read for your reply and this topic in general if my first was indeed rushed. I think this post took longer for me to think up than the original post itself, but I feel I've nailed some of the key points.
 
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alexep7

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Jan 30, 2017
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On a price level, I don't think you'll ever see a true "console killer". Just for fun I just went onto PCPartpicker and tried to make the cheapest rig I could and it was still over 700 USD.
you mean you tried to make the cheapest rig you could that would fit within the size constraints of a console, right? Because you can build a cheap G4560 + RX 470/1050 Ti that will blow away any console for around 400~500 Eur, including an Xbox 360 controller, and I know prices are usually even better in the US so it could go lower than that over there. The only thing you wouldn't be able to match for the price would be the size. You could get close, if you went with a mITX and an Elite Master 110, for example, or even a Node 202, budget allowing.

Also, I'm not sure if this has changed in the past few years, but aren't console games usually more expensive than PC games?
 
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Biowarejak

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I apologize if I don't have a great way with words or thread structure, but is it bad that I share my own bias when others do? I felt that said bias for entry level or budget oriented hardware would help explain my interest in the console killer concept in the process.

Not to get off track, and I'll follow up with the topic later, but the problem I saw was that you came across with a "holier-than-thou" tone when you mentioned your humbleness, ironically, and I believe you may owe @zovc an apology for that, if he feels offended.

I'm sure it wasn't intentional though, and I hope you don't see this as an attack either. You did raise valuable points from the other end of the spectrum and that's very much appreciated!
 

talkion

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i mean, i built a g4560+470 build in the sg13 for $420. the ps4 pro may be slightly more powerful for cheaper, but it's feasible
 
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JosephEK

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Not to get off track, and I'll follow up with the topic later, but the problem I saw was that you came across with a "holier-than-thou" tone when you mentioned your humbleness, ironically, and I believe you may owe @zovc an apology for that, if he feels offended.

I'm sure it wasn't intentional though, and I hope you don't see this as an attack either. You did raise valuable points from the other end of the spectrum and that's very much appreciated!
I will provide an apology if it is sought as you're right it wasn't my intention, but I will edit my post slightly so my language doesn't suggest that I did intend.
you mean you tried to make the cheapest rig you could that would fit within the size constraints of a console, right? Because you can build a cheap G4560 + RX 470/1050 Ti that will blow away any console for around 400~500 Eur, including an Xbox 360 controller, and I know prices are usually even better in the US so it could go lower than that over there. The only thing you wouldn't be able to match for the price would be the size. You could get close, if you went with a mITX and an Elite Master 110, for example, or even a Node 202, budget allowing.

Also, I'm not sure if this has changed in the past few years, but aren't console games usually more expensive than PC games?
I'm pretty sure it's like a AAA game title thing where they all cost 60 dollars. In PC gaming I've found there are many cheaper price points for games and that's before you include F2P and subscription model games. like some of my all time favorite games: Runescape, World of Tanks and Planetside 2.

Personally I think the RX 470 is a bit too expensive and it's also a personal preference to have quad core CPUs these days which I think Ryzen is going to make much better with their 130 dollar R3 option in a few months. As I've said though, I'm extremely enthusiastic about the Ryzen APU lineup "Raven Ridge". I hope it will provide entry-level 1080p gaming for the masses in a similar performance that the A10 series brought to 720p.
i mean, i built a g4560+470 build in the sg13 for $420. the ps4 pro may be slightly more powerful for cheaper, but it's feasible
What hardware do they even use in the PS4 Pro? I never bothered to check, but they've been boasting 4K which to me is something that was never really necessary for console gaming. PS VR however must require some decent horsepower wouldn't it?
 
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zovc

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A PC in comparison is a more modular and versatile machine which to me says they're "similar, but different" so maybe we shouldn't be having the console VS PC debate in price/performance terms. A non-proprietary gaming HTPC even if it fills the same roles of a console should never be priced similarly in the first place and that they require their own price point, but the paradox I've run into is that even if you shouldn't try to compare the price/performance of the two you still can't make a unique price point because a modular PC doesn't have a set-in-stone price point.

That's pretty much what I meant when I said

The more you raise the budget, obviously, the more wiggle room you're going to have to edge out on the more customize-able front, PC.

Now, I don't know much of anything about consoles these days--I just bought a PS4 second hand only so I could play Persona 5--but I'm of the understanding they retail around $400 US with a controller and their operating system and often a game, too.

This is what I came up with on PCPartpicker. The biggest note is that I splurged about $20 going for the cheapest ITX motherboard that had wifi rather than going with a MicroATX motherboard that didn't have wifi, everything else is about as cheap as it gets. My PS4 came with a 500GB (2.5") HDD so I tried to at least match that, and the Silverstone Sugo is ~$15-$20 more expensive than the very cheapest case you could get. There was a RAIDMAX case that was also ITX (but IMO a little less 'living room friendly' or attractive), and it was $10 less. Feasibly, the price could have gone down about $40 if you didn't mind a larger computer. That would leave you just over $400 if you wanted to get pretty much any 'mainline' wireless controller and its adapter. Still no free copy of Windows and no free copy of a modern 'AAA' title.

So this kind of leads into a point I was trying to make which you countered with your humbleness argument. I'm not offended by it, for the record, but I do think it was pretty misguided. Here's the best analogy I could think of:

I've known several people who, when their current vehicle dies, they purchase the cheapest running vehicle they can on Craigslist and ride it until it dies. Most people I know can afford either a 'nice' used car from a reputable dealer or spring for a new vehicle. Even if we can agree that these 'nicer' cars are in fact nicer, the cheap Craigslist cars work and they get people where they need to go. (Until they don't.)

...I don't like to spend too many resources or dollars on something like a PC because I don't want to feel like I'm trying to be better than everyone else. Maybe I go too far to this end, IDK, but I love using budget or entry level equipment for a lot of things. It also helps remove stress of things breaking because it can be a huge setback to replace/upgrade from high end hardware.

So, clearly these people who are spending literally ~$200-$500 on a vehicle aren't "trying to be better than anyone else." Maybe they go too far to this end, being willing to sacrifice having air coditioning, putting up with terrifying noise from the engine at 40MPH, redlining at 55MPH? But given their financial situation, it makes more sense to throw just a few hundered dollars at a vehicle that objectively works--until it doesn't, then they do it again, and it's still cheaper than going through a dealer until like the sixth vehicle kicks the bucket. Sure, it's a lot less heartbreaking when your $300 Craigslist vehicle kicks the bucket, but you've still got to make the decision whether or not you can (or whether or not you want to) afford something nicer the next time. And that's your own decision.

However, I like my vehicle that has air conditioning, that doesn't have any issues reaching highway speeds, has bluetooth, and so on. Maybe I lack "humbleness" or maybe I enjoy a reasonable amount of comfort.

Bringing this back to talking about computers, that PCPartPicker list I posted would yield someone a functional computer. They could play Overwatch or League of Legends (or of course Hearthstone) or pretty much any mainstream game. Going outside of the immediate, well-optimized, mainstream bread box would immediately hit this system with hurdles that would take it below Very High/Ultra settings on most games. Would it still run the games? Yes. Would they still be enjoyable? Probably. I enjoyed Breath of the Wild even though my Wii U cried bloody murder every time I climbed a tree. It objectively would have been a nicer experience if I didn't have to put up with that, though.

Arguably, that computer is adequate. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be nicer with a SSD in there, that it wouldn't benefit from more RAM, that it wouldn't benefit from a processor with more physical and logical cores, that it wouldn't benefit from a better video card. This is what I was getting at when I said "I have a hard time recommending that experience to someone."

I appreciate minimalism and I am impressed by people who choose to do without, but it's up to each individual to decide what's an acceptable level of comfort for them and it's kind of pretentious to tell someone that their idea of comfort is or isn't good enough. I mean it when I say I didn't take offense to you suggesting I wasn't humble, but I'm just trying to explain why I think others might have seen it as out of line.
 

bledha

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Just because there are overlapping mechanisms with both a console and PC doesn't mean it can even be possible to compare them. My tablet can use the web and has a big display, my phone can use the web and make phone calls.

Now - because both those items can use the web, can I adequately compare them as web devices? Sure, but that's about it. Comparison begins and ends at the overlapping skills. Here is an example at how this goes:

"Phones are better because they can also make calls"

"So can tablets with VOIP, maybe not as good quality but you can."

"Well, then you have to consider the cost of a SIM card and monthly fees!"

"What about the cost of WiFi?!"

"Phones have smaller displays!"

Then...down the rabbit hole you go.

The truth of it is that these are both similar devices but with more specifically carved out skill-niches. They are made to serve those purposes. I feel like the whole discussion is just a giant waste of time and nonsense for nerds (like me) to fight about - but it is also very interesting! For instance, PC will always be better for me at this current point, just as a business needs to consider investment and capitalization, I have 2 monitors but no TV, I am not buying a console because then I would have to buy a TV, or sit at my desk with a console (?) which is unlikely as I need to do productivity work! But, but, then I can't veg on the couch!

See what I mean? Down the rabbit hole...

I mean, if you wanna knock FPS vs FPS of specific devices together, by all means, do it. However, nothing else should be considered at that point.
 
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Biowarejak

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Keep in mind also that consoles like to use AMD components :) so they're much cheaper SOC solutions, especially since the ram is used for both graphics and system functions.

In other words, you gotta be using integrated graphics if you wanna be competitive, unless you pickup a secondhand 750ti or something which is pretty much still objectively better in games compared to consoles from what I recall.

You can put together a super cheap computer though that's good enough for web browsing and light gaming loads using Intel hardware, if you don't mind integrated graphics 530 crashing all the time :p
 

talkion

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Mar 10, 2017
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What hardware do they even use in the PS4 Pro? I never bothered to check, but they've been boasting 4K which to me is something that was never really necessary for console gaming. PS VR however must require some decent horsepower wouldn't it?

hardware wise it's around a 470, though with optimizations tailored to one console it'll obviously go further. a lot of their 4k options are either done through checkerboarding / other tactics, though some (like rise of the tomb raider) do actually run at 4k/30
 
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Just because there are overlapping mechanisms with both a console and PC doesn't mean it can even be possible to compare them. My tablet can use the web and has a big display, my phone can use the web and make phone calls.
...

The truth of it is that these are both similar devices but with more specifically carved out skill-niches. They are made to serve those purposes. I feel like the whole discussion is just a giant waste of time and nonsense for nerds (like me) to fight about - but it is also very interesting! For instance, PC will always be better for me at this current point, just as a business needs to consider investment and capitalization, I have 2 monitors but no TV, I am not buying a console because then I would have to buy a TV, or sit at my desk with a console (?) which is unlikely as I need to do productivity work! But, but, then I can't veg on the couch!

See what I mean? Down the rabbit hole...

I mean, if you wanna knock FPS vs FPS of specific devices together, by all means, do it. However, nothing else should be considered at that point.

The only niche consoles fill is people who just want a plug and play solution, and can't do any research. They are marketed towards people who don't know PC's and use controllers and TVs and their console will have to update for half a day out of the box.
 

CC Ricers

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I had a build list I made on PC Part Picker called "Keep it 300" (300 dollars that is) that tried to go for the cheap gamer's budget. It required a mix of bigger and smaller parts. What consoles do one thing well is have the best balance of performance, low price, and small size. I haven't seen a custom built gamer PC that reaches that level of zen. PC's built with super cheap parts tend to go for the ATX sized parts. SFX PSUs and ITX motherboards still cost more than their larger counterparts. And if we want to delve even deeper into the small realm with DC-DC boards and power bricks, options are even more costly at the convenience of size.

S4 Mini is one of the best console form factor cases IMO, but that alone sets you back about $200. Logic Supply's MC 600 is more affordable, but still not super cheap. I'm talking sub-$50 cases. The SFF PC is still in a niche where economies of scale haven't pushed prices of its parts very low. That's where console manufacturers reign supreme, because they are able to market and sell tens of millions of units with a very limited set of specifications.