Motherboard Framework Desktop: ITX Motherboard with Ryzen AI Max CPU

[REVOCCASES]

The custom cooler makes sense (though it doesn't show if it's flat, I assume it is if the memory needs pads). But I am surprised they wouldn't try to use an existing mount holes pattern like the Socket SP5 for Epyc/TR that is 90mm x 90mm

unfortunately it's not flat... here you can see this from how the black LEXAN insulator is applied



here you can see it better... memory and VRM cooling surfaces sitting lower than the contact area for the die





so even if they had adapted a standard mounting pattern, it would still require quite some modding for us to use another cooler

 

[vinnyoflegend]

Aaah good eye. I did not see that angle on the cooler.

 

[REVOCCASES]

a little OT - but this all reminds me of something AMD already did in 2017 ... custom 100W TDP APU with GTX1650 / Ryzen 2400 performance





maybe interesting for some to read:

Log - how to turn a game console into an SFF PC - or - the fastest APU build to date | SFF.Network

one of my friends is still rocking this thing for daily work

 

[ice-T]

To make a really compact setup it might even be a good option to blow through the original heatsink from the side.
Different setups possible of course: Partially blocked off top, different fans types, blower style, 40mm etc.

Depending on your fan setup and noise tolerance lowering the TDP might not be a big issue looking at the reviews of other 395 reviews.

Very nice chip from AMD, looking forward to other manufacturers to making a board as well.

 

[chx]

It's a pity the cooler is this high. Even if you replace the fan with the slimmest you can find which I believe is 12mm you would still need 92-13=79mm and the caseend database doesn't contain any small cases which can accommodate such a tall cooler. If you don't need the AI capabilities, the 5060LP in something like an LZmod A24-V5 will be just as capable especially with the Minisforum BD790i X3D motherboard.

 

[robbyfisher]

I'm looking for a case for the Framework Desktop motherboard. As small as possible.

I'd like to use a Noctua 25mm fan (meaning it has to meet the 92mm internal requirements), fit in a modular Flext ATX psu (165mm in length), and have two USB ports at the front (types A and C). Most candidate cases are designed to take a GPU (which I don't need) and therefore split the internals of the case in two. This makes finding a good quality, small case, quite a challange.

So, I'm wondering, does anyone have a recommendation? Thanks very much!

 

[k0n]

@robbyfisher I'm working on a case that is going to be 2.7L ... but I will not be using a Flex-ATX PSU.

PicoPSU + LOP-300-12 is smaller and fanless at a similar price, if not cheaper. Alternatively, there is the HDPLEX 250W GaN. These are the two PSU's I accounted for.

The 32GB 385 was available, and I actually got it the day after ordering . Since AMD doesn't have a competitive low profile or even full height (<180mm) card, this happens to be the best <4L AMD option and a nice option in general when Framework eventually gives it a discount.

 

[vinnyoflegend]

There seems to be some discrepancies with the space requirements of the cooler.

Take a look at this post where someone fit the board with 25mm fan in an A09 case. This case has a clearance max of 66-70mm.


The schematic itself on the last page shows a max height of 75mm https://github.com/FrameworkCompute...n/Mainboard/FRAMEWORK_DESKTOP_MAIN_PCB_V0.pdf

I would verify but unfortunately I don't have mine in hand anymore and I did not take the board out of the case before I returned it (I did not care for their case) . I'm in queue for a motherboard only.

Another post built in a Densium APU case. They stated the height is 68mm, which would be consistent with it being able to fit in the A09 above.

 

[robbyfisher]

There seems to be some discrepancies with the space requirements of the cooler.

Take a look at this post where someone fit the board with 25mm fan in an A09 case. This case has a clearance max of 66-70mm.


The schematic itself on the last page shows a max height of 75mm https://github.com/FrameworkCompute...n/Mainboard/FRAMEWORK_DESKTOP_MAIN_PCB_V0.pdf

I would verify but unfortunately I don't have mine in hand anymore and I did not take the board out of the case before I returned it (I did not care for their case) . I'm in queue for a motherboard only.

Another post built in a Densium APU case. They stated the height is 68mm, which would be consistent with it being able to fit in the A09 above.

You're totally right. Hard to make sense of it all.

Those Reddit postings are interesting builds and, as you point out, challange the "92mm" requirement.

Assuming the cooler is 48.8mm then adding a Noctua fan would bring the combined heigh to 73.88mm. On the schematic you linked the total FW have is 75.88mm; where did the extra 2mm come from? The measurement on the schematic, to which the measurement endpoint is set, shows an addition protrusion towards the centre of the fan; I wonder what that is? (I have a NF-A12x25 PWM here, I can't see anything other than the rubber shocks that come with the fan I have rising above the 25mm)

The shroud, based on the schematic, is 7.32mm making the assembly 81.2mm

That's still greater than the 66-70mm of the A09; where did you get those cooler height measurements from? The case itself is 89mm wide and very barebone inside (you have to scroll down to see the additionals pics) so I can see that this case would work.

OP of the second Reddit link says, the cooler and fan are ~68mm which, again, as you said, discrepant with the schematic. One RP said the Dan Case A4 was unsuitable as the Framework Cooler did not fit. I take that as tested.

I'm in the same boat (but perhaps not same batch ... 15 for me). I've cancelled my Desktop but mostly because of the PSU noise issue.

 

[vinnyoflegend]

Assuming the cooler is 48.8mm then adding a Noctua fan would bring the combined heigh to 73.88mm. On the schematic you linked the total FW have is 75.88mm; where did the extra 2mm come from? The measurement on the schematic, to which the measurement endpoint is set, shows an addition protrusion towards the centre of the fan; I wonder what that is? (I have a NF-A12x25 PWM here, I can't see anything other than the rubber shocks that come with the fan I have rising above the 25mm)

The shroud, based on the schematic, is 7.32mm making the assembly 81.2mm

Did you mean the Noctua anti-vibration rubber mounts that replace the screws or the anti-vibration pads? The anti vibration pads are more likely accounting for another 2mm in theory.

That's still greater than the 66-70mm of the A09; where did you get those cooler height measurements from? The case itself is 89mm wide and very barebone inside (you have to scroll down to see the additionals pics) so I can see that this case would work.

The A09 series of cases is pretty popular among some SFF forum members. I have two myself. The A09 and A09p. I could NOT fit a NH-L12S cooler which is specified to be 70mm tall. I later fit an ID Cooling IS-60 EVO which is 64mm.

Another forum member was able to fit the NH-L12 ghost edition which is 66mm tall. See their photo here https://smallformfactor.net/forum/t...lds-no-graphics-card.17685/page-4#post-269403

So our measurements come from real-world use

OP of the second Reddit link says, the cooler and fan are ~68mm which, again, as you said, discrepant with the schematic. One RP said the Dan Case A4 was unsuitable as the Framework Cooler did not fit. I take that as tested.

I'm in the same boat (but perhaps not same batch ... 15 for me). I've cancelled my Desktop but mostly because of the PSU noise issue.

The Dan Case A4 has a max cooler height of 48mm. So it would at best fit the board with no fan...

Regarding PSU noise, what did you read? In my testing before returning the unit, the PSU didn't seem to make any noise that could heard over the NF-A12x25-HS fan whether at idle or full load.

After looking at photos again, my thought on the schematic is that it's just wrong. The supports for the heatsink max out at the height of the IO shield (which being an ITX motherboard should be compliant with ATX specs). The IO shield itself is spec'd in ATX at 44.45mm. So the total height of the heatsink would have to be less than that. This would be consistent with the suggested 67-68mm fit, making for a heatsink height of 42-43mm.

 

[robbyfisher]

Regarding PSU noise, what did read?

There's a very long thread here.

Did you mean the Noctua anti-vibration rubber

Yes, that's what I mean. But that's not what's accounting for the other 2mm on the diagram at the bottom of the schematic you linked. The latter is a mystery

my thought on the schematic is that it's just wrong

We might have to do some measurments ourselves ... should a motherboard ship before I die of old age That said, TheJiral offered some data here and I trust his measurements. The comments wooq makes in the same thread are worth reading too.

 

[vinnyoflegend]

There's a very long thread here.

Interesting. I was batch 1 128gbdesktop and only used it about a week before returning. Maybe it would have developed the same issue eventually.

Yes, that's what I mean. But that's not what's accounting for the other 2mm on the diagram at the bottom of the schematic you linked. The latter is a mystery

What I see in the diagram is that they assign part of the height added by the shroud to the fan height measurement for reasons that are a mystery to me as well. Perhaps because it protrudes as a slightly lower height than the peak of the shroud as it rises toward the center.

We might have to do some measurments ourselves ... should a motherboard ship before I die of old age That said, TheJiral offered some data here and I trust his measurements. The comments wooq makes in the same thread are worth reading too.

Thanks for sharing that. I think wooq is correct in his assessment about the IHS being the assumed resting point of desktop CPU coolers. His remarks about the A09 case match what I know. The 63mm spec for it is mentioned on some selling pages and on caseend.com. There is some gap to avoid turbulence which is how I fit a 64mm cooler and PVC in the other thread fit 66mm.

As for boards shipping, I’m still on the fence for cancelling before my number comes up again. Framework’s slow customer service can be a real deal killer. I was patient for getting my return started (nearly took a week of emails to get a label) but I shudder at the thought of it should I require troubleshooting or an RMA.
My use case for LLM inference could be equally fulfilled by dual RTX pro 4000s if they ever come into stock. I’ve also been using a MBP M4 48GB with some success as well so putting the same $$ towards a higher speced system may make more sense.

 

[robbyfisher]

There is another thread on the FW community site where a user has used a Lian Li Q58 for a "just fit" build

As for boards shipping, I’m still on the fence for cancelling before my number comes up again.

I can understand that. There will be more options soon, anyway. I'm also somewhat undecided although I need something quite soon. We'll see

 

[k0n]

I grabbed my A09m and threw the board into it:

The 25 mm fan fits in with 3.5 mm distance measured from the hub to the outside of the panel. Looking at the venting pattern... this is going to be loud and annoying.

I would instead go with a 15 mm slim fan and use the duct that comes with the board.

Really not a bad case for the board..

 

[46x02]

The 25 mm fan fits in with 3.5 mm distance measured from the hub to the outside of the panel. Looking at the venting pattern... this is going to be loud and annoying.

Hm, I would've thought that would be enough distance to largely reduce noise.

By the way, there's also a 20mm thick fan which could be worth considering - InWin Mercury AM120S. I have used it in an SFF build before and found it acceptable. Seems it may have been discontinued but can still be found with a little effort.

 

[robbyfisher]

The 25 mm fan fits in with 3.5 mm distance measured from the hub to the outside of the panel

That's very interesting. That case is 89mm wide isn't it?

 

[k0n]

That case is 89mm wide isn't it?

Yes. I measured 89.5 mm ...

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

Hm, I would've thought that would be enough distance to largely reduce noise.

By the way, there's also a 20mm thick fan which could be worth considering - InWin Mercury AM120S. I have used it in an SFF build before and found it acceptable. Seems it may have been discontinued but can still be found with a little effort.

Other option: Get an Air Slimmer 120. From my various tests, that thing can easily take on any run-o-the-mill 25 mm fan, and then some.
Yes, it can be noisy at highest rpm, but thats the trade-off for better cooling performance. Fan-ducting helps with this, too. Doesnt completely eleminate the noise, but its noticable less than before.

cu, w0lf.

 

[46x02]

Other option: Get an Air Slimmer 120. From my various tests, that thing can easily take on any run-o-the-mill 25 mm fan, and then some.
Yes, it can be noisy at highest rpm, but thats the trade-off for better cooling performance. Fan-ducting helps with this, too. Doesnt completely eleminate the noise, but its noticable less than before.

cu, w0lf.

Another interesting one is Thermalright's new TL-B12015 EXTREM (distinguishable by its gold ring) - it's even more powerful (and noisy).

I think the Air Slimmer 120 you mentioned should be sufficient, given the Framework Desktop's moderate TDP.

 

[hrh_ginsterbusch]

Another interesting one is Thermalright's new TL-B12015 EXTREM (distinguishable by its gold ring) - it's even more powerful (and noisy).

The major issue is the availability: That one seems to be only available via Ali Express so far, while Silverstone Air Slimmer 120 is available to all major markets. The OP seems to be located in the EU, so Ali Express + shipping costs + VAT / toll fees might not be worth it.

Also, is that one prone to explosions like the first versions of the Arctic Slim? AFAIK that was the reason Arctic silently replaced them with a slightly different type of fan. With 3000+ rpm, I'd be a bit sceptical, ESPECIALLY with a slim 120 fan.

I think the Air Slimmer 120 you mentioned should be sufficient, given the Framework Desktop's moderate TDP.

It was able to cool an untamed i5-13500 (which is prone to 200+ watt peaks acc. to tests) during my stress tests without any issues.

cu, w0lf.