Design process discussion

[SaperPL]

Do you agree that everything conveys something, whether intentional or not? That every element of the design influences the impression of the user?

Well, this is exactly what I do not agree with. You can intentionally design something to NOT convey anything. To hide in plain sight and not affect impression of the user in context of the whole object/form. Like for example hidden hinges in doors that are specifically designed to be hidden. They can affect the overall shape of the door indirectly through the structure, but are designed to be virtually invisible. I believe there are many more examples like that. You are looking only at one extreme of the spectrum in this specific argument and I simply do not agree with that.

For the rest, well, I got confused with what you are trying to say. Once you seem to be directing your argument to the form elements conveying something on their own, the next time you talk about always taking the context of the whole form into consideration.

And I believe it should be fairly obvious, at least for you, that we were aiming at some kind of harmony of design with that specific line in the perforation, when we said we wanted it to 'look good with the rest of the case' (regardless whether the outcome is good or bad as it's subjective).

All in all, its a simple box, not a building, not a car, just an electronics enclosure. We are focused more on the function than the form and we are limited with what we can manufacture, so taking apart each design element and trying to give it meaning on its own, and in the context of the whole product at the same time, is not something that we can easily do.

 

[prava]

Sentry is not aiming to convey any specific feelings by its looks. It is supposed to work properly, fit under your TV, in your backpack and to not look ugly (which we achieve piece by piece by eliminating things that don't play well visually with the rest of the case).

The thing is that... maybe you didn't aim to convey any specific feelings by its looks... but your design does convey feelings. It is undeniable:

The design screams industrial, durable and practical.

It isn't simply that it is a design created with the intention to be usable... you were also able to make the design look and feel usable (and sturdy and rough).

So maybe it wasn't intentional. Maybe the aim was usability above anything else... but the Sentry has some very distinctive looks that are very coherent with what the case tries to do. Which is, I belive, why the case was successfull.

 

[Choidebu]

Would you say that the line in the perforation is akin to an artist signing her piece of art? For some it does become a bother, almost destroying an otherwise 'perfect' piece. But done subtlely, gives it identity without detracting much from the piece.

 

[rcodi]

Well, this is exactly what I do not agree with. You can intentionally design something to NOT convey anything.

Isn't this a design paradox? Even if you are trying to design something that doesn't convey anything you are still going to convey that you aren't trying to convey anything

 

[LjSpike]

Well, this is exactly what I do not agree with. You can intentionally design something to NOT convey anything. To hide in plain sight and not affect impression of the user in context of the whole object/form. Like for example hidden hinges in doors that are specifically designed to be hidden. They can affect the overall shape of the door indirectly through the structure, but are designed to be virtually invisible. I believe there are many more examples like that.

A couple of points. First off, a hidden hinge is designed to not be seen, however your trying to consider the hinge, separately, to it's entire product. If you physically removed the hinge, you'd see it, and see it's looks probably aren't designed, because, it's designed to not be seen so it's looks don't matter. The door overall though, that may have to conform to some requirements, such as being able to fit those hinges, however it will have a look which has been designed. Minimalist, futurist, whatever that may be, and the fact that the hinges are hidden adds to that. The hinges in and of themselves are meaningless, but contribute to the meaning of the composition. So hidden hinges aren't designed to not convey anything, from a looks perspective, they aren't designed. The door is designed though, and it's designed to convey something. So I disagree that you can intentionally design to not convey anything.



Really, I think you have three scenarios:

One, you are designing the looks of your product, to convey some feeling you determined beforehand. You are intentionally designing to give people a specific feeling, or idea.

Two, you aren't designing the looks of your product, because they aren't important.

Three, your designing the looks of your product, but without some consciously recognised goal as to what it should convey. Your just trying out ideas, forms, colours and so forth, till you find one which you know feels right. Your designing along a principle that you'll know it when you see it.


Personally, I usually like the latter more. I'd say people usually shop with the goal of getting something they like, not that conveys a specific feeling, and it's more fun to do it that way. Even if it's something like a mere electronics enclosure. In some ways, you can do more because of how 'simple' it is.

 

[K888D]

I'm not taking sides as I agree with points on both sides of the argument. But something else to be considered that hasn't really been mentioned yet is the importance of brand identity. For instance the 3 stripes of Adidas is one of the most identifiable brands in the world, the stripes don't really add anything functional to their products (in most cases) and their products could exist without the stripes, but at the same time its one of the most important aspects of their designs.

Perhaps the staggered vent stripe of the Sentry could be considered brand identity?

 

[Necere]

I apologize if I came across a little strong or overly critical. Normally I keep my opinion to myself in regards to other projects here. Most of them are made by hobbyists or engineering types, and frankly it shows. There are only a handful of people I can think of that seem to have some background in industrial design (the Louqe team and Circletect come to mind). I know the Dr. Zaber guys are primarily engineers, and I don't believe they have any training in industrial or product design. I can't exactly hold that against them, or expect them (or anyone) to understand where I'm coming from if they don't have at least some background in a design-related field.

Design is a broad category that includes a whole bunch of related disciplines. What they have in common is an analytical, principled, problem-solving approach to achieving both functional and aesthetic goals. That's not to say that intuition isn't important, because it very much is. Where I think it differs from art (where intuition dominates) is that in design, every decision is scrutinized, justified, and discarded if it doesn't fit. Consider Dieter Rams' 8th principle:

Good design is thorough, down to the last detail
Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.

Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. That's important, and it's one of my biggest pet peeves when a product has arbitrary design elements. Some people seem to think that because taste is subjective, arbitrary design is okay, and there's no such thing as objectively better or worse design. Sorry, but that's just wrong. You can have two completely different designs for the same product, both good designs, both lacking in arbitrary details, that will appeal to completely different tastes. Make sense?

 

[confusis]

Just a quick word all; keep this civil.

Veiled insults are not to be tolerated. I am watching this thread. Keep the behaviour civil, moderate, with no elitism (I don't care if someone thinks they are better in any way than anyone else, there's never any excuse to be insulting) or I will be forced to apply corrective action - 24 hour bans, warnings, thread locking, etc.

@Necere in particular - just because you are qualified in a particular field does not mean you can hold that above other people. This stinks of the elitism that the design industry reeks of, and it is in no way conducive to a friendly, welcoming community that welcomes the SFF world, of whom consist the majority of your market.

I've noticed a lot of toxic behaviour from users, new and old, as of late and it stops now.

 

[SaperPL]

Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. That's important, and it's one of my biggest pet peeves when a product has arbitrary design elements. Some people seem to think that because taste is subjective, arbitrary design is okay, and there's no such thing as objectively better or worse design. Sorry, but that's just wrong. You can have two completely different designs for the same product, both good designs, both lacking in arbitrary details, that will appeal to completely different tastes. Make sense?

What do you mean arbitrary in this context?

First you have pulled this discussion about conveying something, jumping from talking about each element conveying something on its own to always having context. I did not agree that each element on it's own out of the context has to convey something - that's either our disagreement or a difference in where we draw the line what part of conveyed emotions/concepts are part of the element function and where they contribute to the overall form. That's where I believe our disagreement on the matter lies. Ok.

But you are constantly pulling this discussion towards implicating that we are "YOLO'ing" the design which simply isn't true.

The line is there in the vent area, and is implemented this way, because too much order makes such elements mediocre and suffocating, and we've seen it without the line when looking at the case from various angles. We wanted to change it from mediocre to interesting.


And for the record I technically have training in design (art, graphic & product design), and although it was a single course on my university course, which usually are a laughable matter (such single courses), I feel this one was quite extensive and fruitful for me. I also have quite a lot of experience of working with graphic designers to make stuff look good while conveying what they are supposed to and do it interactively and in motion etc (in games), and I can get their (those graphic designers) opinions anytime. We also have engineers at our company that have designed everyday products with industrial design in mind for external customers before the two of us (me and my brother) were even born. I think that we'll be fine


Please don't make it a pissing contest and just explain what you don't like, or say what do you believe this line conveys. Because we both gave a lot of examples, but you, who stands that everything conveys something, did not say what bad emotion or concept our line in vent conveys that you do not like it.

 

[Necere]

Right then, sorry if I offended anyone. I'll return to keeping my opinions to myself.

 

[SaperPL]

Right then, sorry if I offended anyone. I'll return to keeping my opinions to myself.

It's not that you are offending anyone, it's that you are criticising the process without explaining exactly what you don't like about the outcome of it. You are simply wasting everyone's time doing so.

 

[Necere]

It's not that you are offending anyone, it's that you are criticising the process without explaining exactly what you don't like about the outcome of it.

The character line through the vents on the Sentry seems arbitrary and out of place to me. I understand you feel you needed to break up the vents, but even so, I don't think the way you did it flows with the rest of the design.

Honestly, the overall aesthetic of the case has never worked for me, and it's precisely because as prava said: it looks "industrial." As in, almost purely functional and utilitarian, and like something more suited to a factory or warehouse than a living room or den. But I understand you're quite limited in what you can do with sheet metal and the space you have to work with. I don't know that I could do any better, given the limitations, and can't really offer any suggestions on this front. The best advice I can give would be to try to play to the strengths of the materials, and let form follow function.

 

[Biowarejak]

just because you are qualified in a particular field does not mean you can hold that above other people. This stinks of the elitism that the design industry reeks of, and it is in no way conducive to a friendly, welcoming community that welcomes the SFF world, of whom consist the majority of your market.

Ah! I think that was a typo on his part because of the rest of the line being:

and you shouldn't listen to me. Instead, listen to Dieter:

Which would imply a deference to an authority in the field.

However, I too am concerned about the level of vitriol I've seen recently and I'm glad for it to have been addressed.

@Necere, you do not have to keep your opinions to yourself. The issue is simply in the delivery, and it hasn't just been you. I for one am very glad that this conversation is being had in principle, and I see the merit on either side. We all just need to avoid being combative, and when we feel strongly we ought to pause before we act in order to avoid unintentionally subverting the casually professional tone of the forum.

Personally, I think that case design is art. It's a mode of expression. Some will appeal to different tastes - from the flamboyant to the utterly practical. @Josh | NFC has worked on at least one that is damn near a sculpture! And he's renowned for the understated stylings of the ever practical S4 series.

As designers, I very personally feel that in order to reach a broad audience, we ought to couple the practicality to the form as we progress through this process. It is a very constant cycle of revision, seeing what pleases our eyes - and it better since we will stare at it longer than anyone else - and what actually constitutes a functional product to the end user, be it ourselves, a client, or a novice builder.

I used to always tell myself that functionality comes before aesthetics, but I've learned that I simply can't cleave the two apart. The whole idea behind Radian is an aesthetic that screams its function. It's honestly the first time I have tried to intertwine the two like that, utterly eschewing the aforementioned principle, and I cannot be more pleased with the defining features.

Sure, everything can be analyzed and interpreted, and we probably owe it to ourselves to be thorough and consistent from both an engineering and art language standpoint. Most of us, myself included, just work through it intuitively. Despite that, it is my personal opinion that we ought to be open to experimentation in our design philosophy. Sometimes things don't look right together, that's fine, but it totally opens up the path towards new and better appealing designs. Sometimes they might even supplant the original by addressing a flaw we hadn't notice until we began to try new things. The early pages of @K888D's LZ7 thread show this exact sort of thing happening.

Ultimately, what we design is a reflection upon ourselves and what we value - even if we're just trying to check off features from a list. It's in the way we meet those requirements that we make it more than a box. How we represent it afterward is how we make it more than a brand. Apple turned a single nav-button phone into a culture, Jeep has done the same with their 7-striped grill vehicles.

It seems that on a product, a single defining feature is important for establishing identity, and the rest is just detail work to influence our perception of that one product in particular, even if it has differences from the rest of the product stack.

Peace.

 

[Chrizz]

Spoiler

Kinda ironic how I went from 1 to 3 when reading this.

All in all, its a simple box, not a building, not a car, just an electronics enclosure.

I think this mindset could be limiting your creativity.

In this thread you have distinguished some qualities that you like in your designs:

If I should find a single aspect they share, quality. They are not luxurous but built from quiality materials. I hate to waste and throw stuff away. I hate overpackaging and am 1000000% for environmentally-friendly stuff.

we were aiming at some kind of harmony of design with that specific line in the perforation

The question is whether/how you want to convey these qualities to the user.

I think the takeaway is this:

I'm not saying you should use the same approach as me. All I'm suggesting is that you think about the aesthetic design and try to justify those design decisions the same way you would the functional aspects.

 

[LjSpike]

Ultimately, what we design is a reflection upon ourselves and what we value

It seems that on a product, a single defining feature is important for establishing identity

I think you've really hit the nail on the head there. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

If I should find a single aspect they share, quality. They are not luxurous but built from quiality materials. I hate to waste and throw stuff away. I hate overpackaging and am 1000000% for environmentally-friendly stuff.

The question is whether/how you want to convey these qualities to the user.

You are quoting me outside of its context. I was just answering to Necere what I like about the stuff I like to use. You can't buy them as they are relics from their time that I modded for my sole use.

But even that way, I am asked on a regular basis if I sell my converters... Made them only for me, but yet people are interested since this is something you cannot buy.

 

[Phuncz]

The character line through the vents on the Sentry seems arbitrary and out of place to me. I understand you feel you needed to break up the vents, but even so, I don't think the way you did it flows with the rest of the design.

Honestly, the overall aesthetic of the case has never worked for me, and it's precisely because as prava said: it looks "industrial." As in, almost purely functional and utilitarian, and like something more suited to a factory or warehouse than a living room or den. But I understand you're quite limited in what you can do with sheet metal and the space you have to work with. I don't know that I could do any better, given the limitations, and can't really offer any suggestions on this front. The best advice I can give would be to try to play to the strengths of the materials, and let form follow function.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Consider Zaber's Sentry design isn't because the designers didn't have the right tools or toolset to achieve other results, but that they wanted to achieve the current results. A person's environment shapes a lot of a person's thought processes and thus designs. If they have spent a considerable amount of time in industrial mechanical engineering, it industrial design elements reflected in the Sentry design seems like the sort of thing I would expect from people either pursuing the design or having a considerable amount of experience in.

Considering the amount of cases sold and the demand for the second version, it seems people's tastes are different too.

 

[owliwar]

I agree a lot on what biowarejak said

Despite that, it is my personal opinion that we ought to be open to experimentation in our design philosophy

that is a whole field of design that is based on that, and we call it "contemporary design" in brazil. its soo experimental that it hits the boundaries of art very often.

speaking of taste and intent, I think that pc cases, expecially in this sff / indie cases we design based on what we feel that is lacking on the big manufacturers.

more suited to a factory or warehouse than a living room or den

I guess that this is a point that I'm not sure its talked enought but interior design as well as furniture matters a lot when we design htpc/ living room cases.

if we talk about what should be in a living room, what kind of living room are we talking about? a american classic? a more minimalistic nordic interior? maybe someone likes a more rustic vibes or even a more comtemporary aproach, that blends classic piece with more modern ones.

if we have a living room like this:

or like this:

then, would the sentry be the perfect pc case for this situation?

enviroment matter a whole lot more to me than one single aesthetic, and we should appreciate that, because our enviroment reflects how we see and what we like in the world and I guess our personal system, when we are passionate about it, could reflect that too.

edit:
I dont have to much time to elaborate on this now but this I just wanted to point out how exterior factor could influence a product. and why I treat case design as furniture.

 

[prava]

Honestly, the overall aesthetic of the case has never worked for me, and it's precisely because as prava said: it looks "industrial." As in, almost purely functional and utilitarian, and like something more suited to a factory or warehouse than a living room or den. But I understand you're quite limited in what you can do with sheet metal and the space you have to work with. I don't know that I could do any better, given the limitations, and can't really offer any suggestions on this front. The best advice I can give would be to try to play to the strengths of the materials, and let form follow function.

But I never said that it looks industrial in a bad way The point of the SENTRY is, precisely, that it looks rough, spartan, industrial, utilitarian. It is a product that does what it implies by its design. Just like a wrench does. And I think that this is exactly what the Zaber brothers wanted to accomplish and they succeeded.

Of course, said design doesn't work everywhere nor it isn't for anybody... but it is coherent and it makes a lot of sense. Personally I don't have one because it doesn't match the style of my place, but otherwise I'd get one in a heartbeat.

So, you shouldn't try to look at the Sentry from your standpoint. Forget about right or wrong, we are talking different here. Sheet metal is not a limitation, it is a FEATURE. Powder-coat paint... another feature. Yes, those things aren't featured on sleek products... but Sentry isn't a sleek product. It doesn't try to be. It doesn't need to be. Sentry isn't a wannabe product. It isn't a "well, we don't have alu pannels but we have a hammer and some sheet metal". No. It is a "we want a case that is and looks rough and industrial and spartan and utilitarian. So lets build something following those lines".

With that said, though, I do agree that the Z on the sides takes away from that Spartan design... but the case itself I like a lot.

 

[1461748123]

Man I learned a lot while reading this thread. Thanks a lot guys.