Prototyping Update #1 - MJOLNIR | 9.7L Unibody Case with 240 mm AIO Support | THOR ZONE

Discussion in 'Custom Cases & Projects' started by AlexTzone, Oct 14, 2017.

?

Which MJOLNIR I are you interested in?

  1. Standard Version - 299 USD

    152 vote(s)
    71.4%
  2. RGB Version (No controller) - 319 USD

    19 vote(s)
    8.9%
  3. RGB Version (With controller) - 349 USD

    42 vote(s)
    19.7%
  1. For_Science

    For_Science Average Stuffer

    #701 For_Science, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
    My best guesses (that I would be excited about):
    - A carry case / protector for the case
    - Thinner Mid-plate to allow for either more GPU thickness or CPU thickness clearance (personal preference: GPU thickness :p)
    - More vents on the metal panels? -fingers crossed-
    - Completely mesh side panels
    - Something I/O related...? ( A very subtle type-C port for example...)

    My secondary best guesses (of things that wouldn't tickle my interest :p)
    - Something to do with HDPLEX
    - Anything to do with a handle
    - Anything RGB related (I like to implement my own lighting :p)

    Yes, hopefully something can be done, I appreciate this will also affect the timeline since you may have to produce more prototypes after the first non-youtube sampling since if there are issues found, then you will have to produce new prototypes for the youtubers. Having said that, this is significantly better than some issue being exposed on youtube and receiving bad press, so personally Youtube reviewing should aimed to be a "free ad" rather than a troubleshooting sesion. Obviously the non-youtube sampling would have to be done to those who can commit on effectively a NDA to make sure you can quietly fix the issues as well as people who have complementary hardware to test in the system.

    I would say if it helps at all, maybe you can request for the internal "reviewers" to return the cases afterwards in the case that they are flawless and can be sent directly to youtubers afterwards.
     
    AlexTzone likes this.
  2. Tazpr

    Tazpr SFF Lingo Aficionado

    I feel like the big surprise could be in line with the core design of the sliding rail component.

    Fundamentally this design makes additional external chassis possible, so perhaps the big announcement is the additional of the different chassis, some that are taller to allow for additional cooling or something?

    If not... Well... you should totally consider that since it would be a pretty unique way of dealing with demand for larger/smaller enclosures.

    Also I feel like it could be an attachment to the core struts that behaves like a rail system for mounting things vertically to the internal chassis?
     
    Sahaj and AlexTzone like this.
  3. wolfatpno

    wolfatpno Caliper Novice

    Connected with new H-shaped rail / center frame
     
    AlexTzone likes this.
  4. AlexTzone

    AlexTzone Cable-Tie Ninja
    Thread Starter THOR ZONE

    #704 AlexTzone, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:16 AM
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 9:26 AM
    Guys does anybody have a RTX DUKE GPU? If yes, could you possibly measure the width from backplate -> front and from PCB -> front? We're going to reallocate 2 mm from CPU side to GPU side, expanding GPU compatibility width by 2 mm and decreasing CPU cooler height from 53 mm to 51 mm. Just finished the MJOLNIR Upgrade as well, give me a day or two to reveal it properly :)

    Important thing regarding case feet: we will not increase the height because the distance between bottom of the radiator and your desk is 14 mm already. 5 mm (feet) + 5 mm (enclosure thickness) + 2 mm (distance to radiator rails) + 2 mm (rail thickness) = 14 mm. So it's not just 5 mm, don't worry :cool:

    Best,
    Alex
     
    For_Science likes this.
  5. For_Science

    For_Science Average Stuffer

    Nice....maybe my Strix card has a chance to fit into the case afterall, that would be awesome. Personally I am very happy to lose the 2 mm on the CPU side (since I would either AIO or Blackridge [if they ever fix the production problem]) but I would imagine that quite a lot of people were already complaining about CPU height and so reducing it further is a big "FU" to them. However I think being suggestive of "this is an AIO oriented case" is not a bad move personally since otherwise people will always be complaining about thermals anyway.

    Having said that, I think you might really need to buy a few "standard" AIOs to make sure fitting the tubing into the case is actually possible since I would imagine is not custom loop capable and so making a custom AIO with the alphacool eisbaer is not an option for many.
     
  6. AlexTzone

    AlexTzone Cable-Tie Ninja
    Thread Starter THOR ZONE

    Yes that's kind of the same thought process we had, i.e Noctua NH-L9i or C7 for sub i7 CPUs and AIO for i7 and above. GPUs don't have that luxury (apart from a few exception) so we wanted to prioritize that compatibility. Your STRIX should fit based on our 3D model of it, unfortunately don't have one on hand to test.

    Once the prototype is finished we'll definitely try out a couple of different AIOs. Is there any reason a radiator + fan + pump/block custom loop wouldn't work?
     
  7. AlexTzone

    AlexTzone Cable-Tie Ninja
    Thread Starter THOR ZONE

    #707 AlexTzone, Jan 11, 2019 at 1:41 PM
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 2:24 PM
    Heey guys, time to reveal the mysterious upgrade! :D

    Ever since we added the 120 mm fan under the MOBO we've had our eyes on the low-profile 240 mm AIO from SilverStone (Tundra TD02-Slim). We simply shifted the Motherboard up a couple of mm's and lowered the AIO rails to make room for a 23 mm thick 240 mm radiator. Please note that you'll have to use 1 fan only; hence, it's a good idea to switch out the 15 mm SilverStone fan for something a bit more powerful in the 25 mm height zone. Please note: MJOLNIR is exactly the same volume / size as before.

    Summary of changes
    • Added 240 mm AIO support
    • Expanded the vent pattern (metal panels)
    • 120 mm AIO height compatibility: + 1mm
    • 25 mm 120-fan & SFX-L PSU combo now possible
    • GPU width compatibility: + 2mm (51 mm)
    • CPU Cooler height compatibility: - 2mm (51 mm)
    • Changed to countersunk screws on the internal frame for a flush look.
    240 mm AIO support
    [​IMG]
    A small 40 mm fan from Noctua can be placed on the GPU-side of the 240 mm AIO; this will reduce trapped heat directly under the motherboard.

    Expanded vent pattern
    [​IMG]
    +10 mm's to all sides. Note: the gray border is just for illustrative purposes, will not be part of the product.

    Why decrease CPU Cooler height?
    We prioritized GPU compatibility now that the CPU can be cooled with a 240 mm AIO. Just think of it, how many more CPU coolers will you fit at 53 mm vs 51 mm? Not that many, and definitely none with the same performance as a 120 mm / 240 mm AIO. The GPU is another story, as big GPUs like ASUS 10-series STRIX- and MSI RTX-Duke become viable options. It's a bit of a sacrifice, but one that I think is worth it. What do you think? :)

    Case feet
    Many of you have had concern with regards to the 5 mm case feet on MJOLNIR, please note that the actual distance between the AIO radiator and the ground / desk / floor is 14 mm. This is due to the fact that the radiator / case fans are not flush against the bottom of the case.

    Final design
    As far as I can tell, this design is now totally maximized and every little bit of space is utilized without starting to impact aesthetics. Can't wait to build the prototype, test loads of different configurations, send the case for review on YouTube and then RELAUNCH the Kickstarter campaign. We'll make sure to structure it much better this time and also introduce ourselves in the video. We're not going to relax until MJOLNIR is sitting on your desk (and most likely not even then ;)).

    Let me know what you think guys, was this a meaningful change / upgrade or did we overhype it?

    Best,
    Alex
     
    NIIV3X, Sahaj, SashaLag and 3 others like this.
  8. PBJ

    PBJ Chassis Packer

    I don’t know enough about this but on another thread for a similar case, someone asked about using a 240mm with one fan. The answer was that it would probably trap heat under the motherboard where there is no fan present. If someone more knowledgeable has an answer for this, it would be great.

    All changes look like great ideas by the way. Keep it up!
     
  9. theGryphon

    theGryphon Cable-Tie Ninja

    ^ Yeah, trapping heat at the bottom is a real concern.

    Alex, you should really and strongly recommend the 180-degree flipped orientation with AIO coolers.

    Edit: Btw, I correctly guessed that the upgrade would be 240mm AIO support, but I didn't post it :oops:
     
  10. AlexTzone

    AlexTzone Cable-Tie Ninja
    Thread Starter THOR ZONE

    Will evaluate the degree of this concern once the prototype is finished :) But a small 40 mm fan from Noctua or the like can be placed on the GPU-side of the 240 mm AIO to reduce such heat.

    Thanks for the tip, will test all kinds of different configurations once we have a working 240 mm prototype & provide recommendations based on those observations :thumb:
     
  11. theGryphon

    theGryphon Cable-Tie Ninja

    Is it possible to support two 60mm fans on the GPU side of the radiator? That would be some relief.
     
  12. For_Science

    For_Science Average Stuffer

    #712 For_Science, Jan 11, 2019 at 2:37 PM
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 2:56 PM

    Hard to say around the motherboard since I don't have the case (-wink-), but here are things that I can already say that will be challenging.

    Supposed total height allowed for the radiator part of the AIO = 55 mm. (not sure if 55 mm = hitting into the PSU, or whether again you've allowed mm's for PSU cables) also your renders seem to have plenty of gap for the tubing, so maybe 55 mm is just for the fan and radiator and you have more allowance for the tubing, but I am assuming worst case scenario here. I am also only using hardtubing to make my life difficult, so things would be a "bit" easier with soft tubing, but most rules still apply for minimum curvature and bending of tubing.

    Typical radiator thickness = 25 - 30 mm.
    Typical fan thickness = 15 or 25 mm

    Since as I understand there is a hard limit of the 120 mm width on the AIO, I assume the tubing has to be routed above the fan to make the correct routing (i.e. tubing can't lick the outer perimeter of the fan, or the radiator). Therefore as you have in the renders, the tubing also contribute towards the AIO height.

    [​IMG]

    Now these are some very special hard tubing and fittings I have planned for the eventual build (-winkwink-), you can see that having a temperature probe fitting on one of the fittings raises the left tube perfectly to achieve this "offset tubing" layout. Natively (as pictured here), there is just about 15 mm between the bottom of the fitting to the tubing, and so is a perfect height to clear a low profile fan. In this case height is about 50 mm (or 48 mm if only thinking about the tubing part).

    Now, to clear a 25 mm fan, this brings the total height (probably achieved through some extender fittings) to more like 60 mm

    [​IMG]


    This may not work since therefore when you add this height to a typical 25-30 mm radiator, the height of the whole thing is 73 mm (25 mm radiator + low profile fan) all the way up to 88 mm (30 mm radiator + 25 mm fan). These both are significantly more than 55 mm, and so I can only be hopeful that it didn't include the space for the tubing.

    Now, the only way that I can think of immediately to make the whole thing fit in 55 mm and also free up some space is to route the tubing over the PSU. The tubes would come out of the radiator in a parallel plane and have to bend up against eh PSU. However at 6 or 7 bends, this would be certainly the hardest hardline bend that I would ever do :p. Edit: since the tubing is 13 mm outer diameter, I am not sure if this is even possible probably not enough room between the chassis and the PSU wall.
    [​IMG]

    Very intriguing updates! I am very happy to see more holes, obviously GPU thickness is a huge plus for me.

    Personally a bit on the fence about the Silverstone AIO since I probably wouldn't use it, but here's a few questions: What is the thickness limit of the 240 mm radiator? I am hoping the answer is 25 mm (and not 23 mm) since that would mean that 1: 25 mm fans become compatible, and 2: Eisbaer LT240 is compatible (copper radiator, custom loop friendly). Otherwise I (personally) would probably stick to an 120 mm and a fan

    I suppose it only makes sense to do a 240 in a passive configuration if the case is used in the upside down orientation (which should be the case anyway if using an AIO) since heat would naturally rise.
     
  13. giraffesinmybalcony

    giraffesinmybalcony Caliper Novice

    Is it possible to place the radiator on the top instead of the bottom? also you may want to take a look at the Raijintek Ophion Evo and perhaps take some cues of the component placement?
     
  14. htko89

    htko89 Trash Compacter

    You can just flip the internal frame 180.

    On another note, most sff cases out there or in concept phase already allow some way of mounting an AIO inside or on top of the case (ala tophat). Since temperatures seem to be the biggest barrier in your KS campaign + cable management IMO, why not change design to either
    • Allow for a 240 RAD + 2x slim 15mm FAN?
    • or Allow for a full 240 + 2x full 25mm fan.
    I get that it's not in the spirit of SFF and I'm going to get a lot of flak for this idea, but it seems like your target audience wants it. Louqe's selling point is it's tophats. Dan C4, NCase M1, The new SideArmD case by @Wahaha360, etc all support AIO and are your direct competitors.

    It would reduce a lot of the cable management pain, temperature issues, and crazy spine cutouts. That 24pin atx cable is huge and will definitely conflict with the AIO fan as is if the cables are sleeved in any way.
     
  15. htko89

    htko89 Trash Compacter

    Alternatively, and this is a radical redesign - Look at how the corsair one decouples their fan and rad. Corsair utilizes one 140mm fan to drive two ultra slim and low airflow 240mm rads. It requires a sealed case however for positive pressure and I know this won't be of anyone's taste - just throwing the design idea out there.
     
  16. AlexTzone

    AlexTzone Cable-Tie Ninja
    Thread Starter THOR ZONE

    @giraffesinmybalcony @htko89 Guys I know you mean well, but we have to get this project rolling. MJOLNIR design is now finalized and we’re moving to optimizing / producing the prototype :)
     
  17. For_Science

    For_Science Average Stuffer

    I just had a mental run through the cable management and yes, it will likely be difficult, but that is always the case in SFF case. In my internal ranking this is probably par or slightly more difficult than the A4 SFX especially if an AIO is involved (if no AIO, then easy peasy).

    Corsair SF series assumed
    24 pin (starting from motherboard) --> 180 bend out into the GPU compartment (use narrow gap between board and AIO fan/radiator) --> loop back ontop of the fan (between the AIO fan and underside of GPU) then make the connection. Difficulties assumed to be doing the bend back towards the PSU and making the cable fit between the GPU and fan.

    8 pin EPS either go in front of the motherboard and take the shortest distance to the PSU (going over the AIO fan, but presumably behind the AIO tubes) or behind the motherboard through the GPU compartment (via fan mount area) coming through the same opening as the 24 Pin if there is enough space

    SATA power (starting from PSU) --> either minimum distance going between the AIO radiator ports and from the bottom cutout, or doing a sharp 180 upwards and going up through the small gap between the internal chassis front and PSU.

    PCIe power (starting from PSU) either the same way as the SATA power going through the AIO radiator ports, and then bending up the back of the graphics card, or via the front of the chassis (by the SSD). Alternatively weaving between the 24 pin cables.

    I think doing all that with nice custom sleeved cables will be very very difficult and would recommend using flexible wires initially and only try sleeved once you get a system working :p. Stock cables should actually be not too bad I think as I can see a few pockets here and there that you can tuck away bundles of excess cables.

    I think the mjolnir will be easy to get looking nice (as it is intrinsically nice looking), but be incredibly challenging for those that want all the bells and whistles (hardlined custom tube + custom sleeved cables, for example). My perspective on the matter - challenge accepted
     
    AlexTzone likes this.
  18. Necere

    Necere King of Cable Management
    NCASE Spatial Philanthropist

    You know, that expanded vent pattern isn't going to accomplish much. The real problem is the low open area due to the wide hole spacing. They're 3mm holes with ~7mm spacing, right? Or they have that ratio, at least. That gives an open area of just 14%, which is going to significantly restrict airflow. For comparison, Lian's Li's typical 3mm staggered hole pattern that's used on the M1 and A4 is about 40% OA.
     
  19. AP2

    AP2 Average Stuffer

    @For_Science whats so special about the tubing and fittings?
     
  20. JohnCA

    JohnCA Cable Smoosher

    #720 JohnCA, Jan 12, 2019 at 12:23 AM
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 12:46 AM
    Why are you trying to rush it again? lol
    Anyway, here are some problems I still see on the design:

    - The 240mm AIO with only one 120mm fan might be a useless idea. PC radiators need a lot of air pressure to work well, so it probably won't be any better than a 120mm AIO;
    - I would add at least 5mm height on the case feet, just to be safe. It will still look good visually, and AIO cooling would improve (14mm distance to the floor doesn't sound enough to me);
    - The vent holes still seem too small, as Necere and others said. Make them even larger to improve airflow;
    - The screw mouting points on the glass seem impractical, as they will make it very weak. Your best bet is probably this idea (and even then, u gotta be careful about the distance of the holes to the glass edges);
    - You seem to be trusting your renders tolerances too much. Things get a bit unpredictable with cables/tubing, so you might want to increase the volume a bit. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but better be safe on prototyping, and only make it smaller on mass production if possible.

    Please consider the details above, I'll let you know if I can spot any other possible flaws ;)