Price Check - Small 200W AC-DC Brick

Kmpkt

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Hey all,

Wondering what people in the community would feel is a fair price for a very small 200W 19V GaN based AC-DC external brick with standard barrel connector. For comparison it would be smaller than the Dell 180W AC-DC adapter (0.25L instead of 0.36L) which retails for 119.99 and is the same volume as the Razer 200W AC-DC brick that retails for 129.99 USD. This brick would also be available in a 12V version with 4 pin DIN for a about 5 dollars more.

Dimensions are 150mm x 54mm x 33mm

Razer 200W:
https://www.razer.com/gaming-accessories/razer-200w-power-adapter

Dell 180W:
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-power-adapter-180-watt-74mm/apd/450-ahdj/pc-accessories
 
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robbee

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With the HDplex AC-DC 200 at 60$ and Meanwell around the same, I do feel like that's quite expensive. Mini-box also has an external 192w brick at 59$. I believe Razer and Dell add quite some 'premium' margin on their high-end products.

Excuse my ignorance btw, but what is GaN based? :)
 
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Lone

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I'm not sure about price, but I'd be interested in this (and a 12V DC-ATX ;)). I would be willing to pay a premium for a smaller, quality brick. Would the 12V version be the same size?

I did up a quick size comparison.



Left to right: Adapter Technology 192W (12V), Dell 180W (19.5V), Razor 200W (19.5V), Adapter Technology 200W GaN (12V & 19V).
 
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Kmpkt

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@Lone

Thanks for the size comparison. The Dell is 155mm x 76mm x 30mm if that helps.

@robbee

GaN stands for Gallium Nitride which is a replacement for Silicon based materials in power systems. The simple way to look at it is that GaN based units will (as technology improves) allow MUCH smaller AC-DC units than are currently available. It also allows much higher levels of efficiency (the unit I am looking at is rated at 95% typical efficiency while the HDPlex 200W AC-DC is rated for 85% efficiency). The unit I am hoping to offer would be one of the first GaN based AC-DC adapters to hit the market at > 65W.

Longer term I would love to be able to offer "micro bricks" with a wattage of 150-200W @ 12V that are summable at the DC-DC unit (ie. up to three units could be summed) and are approximately the size of 2.5" SSDs. GaN will hopefully make this an eventual reality.
 

confusis

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$5, and that's my best offer.

*cough*

Would the brick carry the proper certifications for the unit? IOW a complete unit, and not just an off the shelf open frame unit slapped into a plastic shell?
 

Lone

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CUI and TT Electronics also sell the Adapter Technologies 192W adapter that mini-box.com sells, so it's very likely that this 200W GaN adapter will be widely available. If you could get it private branded without an insane commitment, that would be cool.
 

Kmpkt

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Valantar

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I'd probably be more interested in an open-frame or enclosed internal unit than a brick, but that's down to my personal aversion towards power bricks. Too many things (consoles, STBs, routers, etc.) force them on me, so i want to avoid them when I can. Still, at a decent price (perhaps around $80-ish?) this would be a very attractive option - a smaller brick is definitely better, after all.
 

Kmpkt

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I'd probably be more interested in an open-frame or enclosed internal unit than a brick
I agree, but HDPlex is already doing a very good job of this with their new 200W and 400W AC-DC units. I'm also not looking to step on Larry's toes by offering a competing product to his bricks (he's been very good to me).

In my mind there are a lot of people that want to keep their enclosure as small as possible which requires an external brick - a need which is not well met by the HDPlex products. This is the niche I would be looking to serve by offering these units.

Furthermore, the 12V unit would also be a perfect pairing for @Thehack's J-Hack products as well as the Pico Box 160XT which a lot of people like to use for their builds.

Finally, these units would also be a really good substitute for owners of the Deskmini GTX 1060 as 200W is adequate (120W GPU and 65W CPU). The brick that ships with the unit is MASSIVE (ie. over triple the size of this unit) which really hinders the use of a the DeskMini GTX as a portable gaming system.
 
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comagoosie

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$100-120 or $150-180 for something truly special (no idea what that might be). Power bricks have the enticing property that they can be swapped out for the latest, greatest, (and smallest) version, whereas brickless cases seem to become outdated in time or overcompensate to house a multitude of ac-dc psus internally.
 

Valantar

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I agree, but HDPlex is already doing a very good job of this with their new 200W and 400W AC-DC units. I'm also not looking to step on Larry's toes by offering a competing product to his bricks (he's been very good to me).

In my mind there are a lot of people that want to keep their enclosure as small as possible which requires an external brick - a need which is not well met by the HDPlex products. This is the niche I would be looking to serve by offering these units.

Furthermore, the 12V unit would also be a perfect pairing for @Thehack's J-Hack products as well as the Pico Box 160XT which a lot of people like to use for their builds.
Yeah, I'm definitely most interested in 12V myself, as it lets you skip the (largely unnecessary) secondary voltage conversion step to 12V. One of these + one of @guryhwa's ArchDaemon units or @Thehack's DC-ATX boards would make for a killer setup even with a mid-powered dGPU. Definitely better than Dell's 12V 220W brick, which is ... not small (even if Gury is able to mod them to deliver 500W).
 
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kotproger

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VOF-225A-12
12v open frame AC-DC 225W max 101.6mm x 50.8mm x 25.4mm - 0.13l volume!
I have not seen anything better in terms of size / power ratio
 

Valantar

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VOF-225A-12
12v open frame AC-DC 225W max 101.6mm x 50.8mm x 25.4mm - 0.13l volume!
I have not seen anything better in terms of size / power ratio
That size seems to be an industry standard (as is 5"x3" apparently), the MeanWell EPP-200-12 is the same size. MeanWell also has enclosed versions that are only marginally larger, and more powerful versions (400W and 500W) in 5"x3". There's a big thread dedicated to MW 12V PSUs in case you haven't seen it :)

Neither of these are GaN, though. GaN-based units should be able to deliver the same power at around half the volume, at least in theory.
 

Kmpkt

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VOF-225A-12
12v open frame AC-DC 225W max 101.6mm x 50.8mm x 25.4mm - 0.13l volume!
I have not seen anything better in terms of size / power ratio
If you're talking open frame then this is likely as dense or even slightly mores:

https://belfuse.com/product-detail/power-solutions-ac-dc-open-frame-mbc-series-mbc180

Now, a couple things about open frame that people seem to miss when the bring them up like this. Firstly if you check the spec sheet you need 13CFM MINIMUM of crosswise air flow in a SPECIFIC direction in order to have this unit be rated for 225W. If you don't have that, the unit derates to 120W passively cooled in open air. This is not a 225W power supply the same way the GAN brick is a 200W power supply and to say that is of the same power density is disingenuous. If you're looking for an open frame PSU that can handle 200W without active cooling then you'll need to look at something like this at 127mm x 76mm x 36mm):

https://www.cui.com/product/power/ac-dc-power-supplies/chassis-mount/vof-300-series


Secondly, open frame PSUs are not user friendly. What I mean by that is an individual without significant knowledge of wiring, crimping, etc. is not able to effectively use them. There is also a far more significant chance that a neophyte can harm themselves using a supply like this. I would argue that more people than not in our community probably shouldn't be using an open-frame PSU. A pre-configured, closed frame solution is monkey-proof - plug in your DC-DC, plug in your AC-DC via a single barrel connector, plug into the wall, go.

Thirdly, these open frame solutions are really expensive for what you're getting. This AC-DC brick on the other hand I would hope to be able to offer for significantly under 100 USD.

Neither of these are GaN, though. GaN-based units should be able to deliver the same power at around half the volume, at least in theory.
The down scaling of power supplies will go down as manufacturers/developers are able to get higher switching frequencies out of GaN. This unit switches at 250 KHz while the more advanced units switch at 1 MHz. The 1 MHz units are vastly more efficient (98%+) and are much, much smaller at a given wattage. That being said this unit is a pretty decent step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.
 

kotproger

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That size seems to be an industry standard (as is 5"x3" apparently), the MeanWell EPP-200-12 is the same size. MeanWell also has enclosed versions that are only marginally larger, and more powerful versions (400W and 500W) in 5"x3". There's a big thread dedicated to MW 12V PSUs in case you haven't seen it :)

Neither of these are GaN, though. GaN-based units should be able to deliver the same power at around half the volume, at least in theory.
Just because they have a standard in size - I wrote about these blocks. Frankly, these innovations are fed up with new standards for size and fastening. Personally, I want to see either a decrease in the thickness of existing standard (albeit industrial) units, or an increase in their power with full observance of dimensions.
Yes, it’s originally about external blocks. And damn it - they are not so fundamentally to have an advantage in size relative to the internal power units.
But if the price and the truth is $ 5 and all the requirements for the output voltage (accuracy and noise level) are met, safety standards are cool. Otherwise - not necessary.
 
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Gutzy

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Mar 11, 2018
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Man this is awesome.

Wish we had a "Moores Law" equivalent for power to density with respect to PSU's.
Would help give an idea of what the future holds lol.

Bravo btw, 200W from something so small is amazing.
 

Valantar

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Jan 20, 2018
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Man this is awesome.

Wish we had a "Moores Law" equivalent for power to density with respect to PSU's.
Would help give an idea of what the future holds lol.

Bravo btw, 200W from something so small is amazing.
Doubt there's much use in this, as progress in this field is slow. GaN is the first major innovation in the field in ages, it would seem - before that it's been iterative improvements on the same concepts since forever.
Just because they have a standard in size - I wrote about these blocks. Frankly, these innovations are fed up with new standards for size and fastening. Personally, I want to see either a decrease in the thickness of existing standard (albeit industrial) units, or an increase in their power with full observance of dimensions.
Yes, it’s originally about external blocks. And damn it - they are not so fundamentally to have an advantage in size relative to the internal power units.
But if the price and the truth is $ 5 and all the requirements for the output voltage (accuracy and noise level) are met, safety standards are cool. Otherwise - not necessary.
I'm sorry, but I can't make heads nor tails of what you're saying here.

@Kmpkt Do you have any intel on higher wattage GaN units, like something that could replace Dell's 330W unit? 200W is good for an OC'd APU or low-powered GPU, but 300-ish could power a decent mid-range GPU. With that kind of power in a compact brick at a decent price, I'm reasonably sure I could get over my brick anxiety.
 

Kmpkt

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@Kmpkt Do you have any intel on higher wattage GaN units, like something that could replace Dell's 330W unit? 200W is good for an OC'd APU or low-powered GPU, but 300-ish could power a decent mid-range GPU. With that kind of power in a compact brick at a decent price, I'm reasonably sure I could get over my brick anxiety.
Nothing commercial as of right now. I've asked Adaptertech about doing a custom unit or even something internal/aluminum enclosed but they're not receptive at this time. My hope eventually (were I to do ongoing business with them) would be to sell them on the idea of doing a larger 12V unit, but that's not happening any time soon. In the meantime there is the Y-PWR summing device and it would seem that @Thehack is working on a beefier version of this (40-50A) which would allow easy load sharing between two (or even 3) 200W bricks of the same sort which could be applicable here.