Stalled Mosaik - Klotz: 18.9L (prev. 18.6L) Case for Large Air and Liquid Coolers With Minimalistic Design

adesignaddict

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Also:

- Option to invert the core so that the GPU sits at the top: we really liked this idea and wanted to make it happen, but even though it looks trivial, there's a number of things that prevent this from working without redesigning large parts of the chassis, creating new problems elsewhere within the case. We will keep thinking about this, but please don't get your hopes that it will make it into the first iteration of this product.

- 3.5" HDD bracket request: We'll be taking a look at this next.

- Downsizing to 16L/shrinking in XYZ requests: while it might be possible to shave off a couple of mm here and there, this almost always has a domino effect, affecting component fitment throughout the case.

Here are some dimensions for context:

The width between the motherboard tray and side bracket is 181mm (Exterior shell, clearance between the shell and the chassis, available positioning of the motherboard tray, slightly offset AIO side bracket to allow for screw head clearance). That, minus the 6mm standoffs, minus 8mm from the motherboard PCB to the surface of the CPU = 168mm for the tower cooler. Sure, we could shave off 3mm there resulting in exactly 165mm clearance, but that would be cutting it a bit too close for our taste as pieces of aluminum sheet metal aren't always 100% straight in the real world and we wouldn't want your components to be under unnecessary strain. A tiny bit of extra clearance doesn't hurt.

The internal length of the main chassis (not counting the front compartment) from wall to wall is 326mm, minus a threaded insert that unfortunately sticks out where the radiator would fit, results in 324.5mm of clearance. For reference, Corsair's 280mm radiator is 322m long. So that's already cutting it pretty close. One way to create more space here/shorten the overall (perceived) length would be to flip the flanges of the rear panel, either letting the panel move back a bit to offer more room or have the entire chassis shortened a bit. However, be aware that this would mean that the PCIe bracket of the GPU would then stick out the back instead of being flush with the rest of the case. Therefore, it wouldn't truly be shorter, though it would be perceived as such since the length of the enclosure would be a couple mm less.

The interior height, the one that matters for components, is 245mm with the top edge of the motherboard sitting 9.45mm under the interior top edge of the case. So, to be totally honest, we're currently still missing proper information on the dimensions/location for the GPU here. From the information we've found online there are some conflicting numbers (made worse through false conversions from imperial to metric measurements) regarding the exact placement of the GPU on the motherboard. Motherboard CAD models available from places like Protocase, GrabCAD and this forum all have different locations for the GPU placement and to make things even more complicated, the cutouts for the PCIe slots aren't standardized. So we've been using real-world measurements taken from our PC cases until now, which aren't very reliable/accurate. Long story short, this is preventing us from knowing the exact height needed for proper GPU clearance and therefore we can't make a properly informed decision on the exact height of the case. Our current plan is to consult the manufacturer we end up going with about this, but if there's anyone here in the community that might be able to help us out before that, that would be greatly appreciated!
 

Fitchew

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Feb 2, 2019
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And could you combine two elements: a frame for drives on the front and an i/o frame? Next add the ability to the combined frame to move up and down on the structural frame and at the same time to be able to rotate it 180 degrees. Then it would be possible to change the position of front i/o.
 

Fitchew

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Feb 2, 2019
43
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Thanks for keeping us in the loop, these are some really nice additions.
I can only speak for myself, so here are a few thoughts I have on the update:
  • I for my part don't care at all about ATX PSUs, as there are powerful enough alternatives in the sfx(-L) standard. Maybe offer the bracket as an accessorie?
  • love the all metal look, could you please give us renders of the cases in a dual-tone mode (black/white)? 🥰
  • I really like the idea of a more flexible IO as there are not that many ITX boards with an actual usb-c header as of now. Have you tried putting the new I/O solution on the bottom right to better avoid possible cable interference?
  • wouldn't worry too much about the feet height, before you didn't get the chance to benchmark temps in a prototype. (or what was the feedback on this? the first design iteration looked pretty good for what I'm concerned :) )
Agree.
 
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Fitchew

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Feb 2, 2019
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And could you combine two elements: a frame for drives on the front and an i/o frame? Next add the ability to the combined frame to move up and down on the structural frame and at the same time to be able to rotate it 180 degrees. Then it would be possible to change the position of front i/o.
Even more to this. This will make the design more flexible, since the only thing that will need to be done is to change the location of the cut on the wooden front panel. Someone will not need this cut, but someone needs, someone in one corner, someone in another. Nevertheless, even if there is a cut, it will be possible to install it in two different ways (top or bottom), just flip the panel.

Another thought: could try to make rounds on the i/o on the front panel the same radius as at the corners of the front panel itself. Of course, you know better, there is probably more experience in design than mine, but it would be interesting to look at it.
 

adesignaddict

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Feb 9, 2020
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this case looks great and very well designed! I can’t wait to see more. Do you have any sort of timeline on a physical prototype or is the design still being prototyped?
Thank you! :) Sorry, no timeline just yet. We have already sent our ATX design to a manufacturer to get some quotes, but we're still waiting on that as they're quite busy at the moment. We wanted to send them the SFF design as well as soon as possible, but are now waiting on that just a tiny bit longer as we figured there'd be some changes once we post here and get some feedback. Once the design is in a state where we feel it's good enough we'll move ahead with getting a prototype made as quickly as possible as we're just as eager to test it as you guys ;)

got it, thanks for the clarification :)
Do you guys have any price estimates as of now?
Not yet, sorry.
 

Fitchew

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Feb 2, 2019
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I think that you need to move the power cable connector to the right of the pci brackerts. Otherwise, there may be a conflict of installing large tower coolers and in addition the cable will interfere with access to the lock of PCI-E x16.
 

adesignaddict

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Feb 9, 2020
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Thanks for keeping us in the loop, these are some really nice additions.
I can only speak for myself, so here are a few thoughts I have on the update:
  • I for my part don't care at all about ATX PSUs, as there are powerful enough alternatives in the sfx(-L) standard. Maybe offer the bracket as an accessorie?
  • love the all metal look, could you please give us renders of the cases in a dual-tone mode (black/white)? 🥰
  • I really like the idea of a more flexible IO as there are not that many ITX boards with an actual usb-c header as of now. Have you tried putting the new I/O solution on the bottom right to better avoid possible cable interference?
  • wouldn't worry too much about the feet height, before you didn't get the chance to benchmark temps in a prototype. (or what was the feedback on this? the first design iteration looked pretty good for what I'm concerned :) )
Another thought I had regarding the front panel, but it's a little stretch.
As there are a few people commenting on the IO placement, compatibility and also that some wouldn't need it at all, maybe this could also be a possible solution to offer:
Give the possibility to get the case/front panel without the IO altogether - a plain front panel, no bracket and no pcb.
Alter the back of the case and place a knock-out hole somewhere to accommodate either a power button or a fitting to drain/fill a liquid loop.
Something along those lines (but inwards):

This would obviously alter the aesthetics and wouldn't look as sleek, if not in use. But this could really be beneficial in some scenarios imo.
As I mentioned either for people that don't want the front IO or for custom water loops.
(totally unaware of a CNC / punch process though and this might not be possible at all 😅 )
I don't say this should be the "standard" edition, but could be a nice option to have.

Maybe something to take into consideration :)
Sure thing :) Thanks for the great feedback!
  • Ah yes, the ATX PSU bracket would definitely be an optional accessory. We wouldn't wanna force that extra cost on people who don't need it. We figured that, while a lot of people will probably prefer an SFX/-L PSU, we could offer the extra bracket to those moving from a larger build with an ATX PSU to our case as a simple solution so they don't need to spend an extra $130+ for an SFX unit right away.
  • Glad to hear that. And sure thing, will do ;)
  • We have tried both the bottom right and middle and both cause issues with the USB cable sticking out in a way that's unfavorable to the GPU :/
  • Alright. Yeah we got some feedback on the legs being a bit short which could cause insufficient airflow for the GPU. At just 10mm (+ 1mm anti-slip/anti-scratch pads) the feet aren't super tall and though we could quickly address this by either making the feet slightly taller or designing an optional alternative. However, it just really didn't look good. So, unless you guys think otherwise, we'll move ahead with the original feet for now and see what the testing with the prototype will tell. (Also, it's 11mm ground clearance from the sides, but 13mm lengthwise because the shell doesn't cover that part.)
  • While we like the idea of a no front I/O version in theory, we're sadly not going to be able to provide that with the low production numbers that we can manage to start off with. At some point all these options really add up and the more parts a product has the higher the minimum order quantities get as it's more trouble for the manufacturer. So we need to be really selective with what makes sense from a value vs. cost vs. MOQ standpoint.
 
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adesignaddict

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I think that you need to move the power cable connector to the right of the pci brackerts. Otherwise, there may be a conflict of installing large tower coolers and in addition the cable will interfere with access to the lock of PCI-E x16.
We actually started off with that position but in the end, felt that it wouldn't make as much sense there as it would make it quite cumbersome to insert or take out the graphics card. But maybe we could offer two spots for the connector and people can position it to their liking.
 

fabio

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We actually started off with that position but in the end, felt that it wouldn't make as much sense there as it would make it quite cumbersome to insert or take out the graphics card. But maybe we could offer two spots for the connector and people can position it to their liking.
I agree with @Fitchew , the power cable was one of the issue in the Streacom DA2, giving issue with some big cooler.

if you really want to keep it there, try to have it flat/90 degrees, or something else maybe?
 
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adesignaddict

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I agree with @Fitchew , the power cable was one of the issue in the Streacom DA2, giving issue with some big cooler.

if you really want to keep it there, try to have it flat/90 degrees, or something else maybe?
Alright, thanks for the insight :)

We basically only have those two spots available as it would also cause problems with big tower coolers if we place it at the top of the case, above the fan. We'd be really interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

Option A: Keep it where it is. (could cause problems with big air coolers)?
Option B: Place it next to the graphics card. (could cause problems with getting the graphics card in and out of the case)?
Option C: Offer both locations with a cover to close the cutout that's not in use?

P.s. Could you clarify what you mean by "flat/90 degrees" as it's already oriented horizontally? If you mean vertically, there sadly isn't enough room for it.
 

Fitchew

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Feb 2, 2019
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We actually started off with that position but in the end, felt that it wouldn't make as much sense there as it would make it quite cumbersome to insert or take out the graphics card. But maybe we could offer two spots for the connector and people can position it to their liking.
You can also move the power cable to the upper right corner. And perhaps this would be the perfect solution.
 

Fitchew

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Feb 2, 2019
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@adesignaddict As you can see, in principle, any of the options is possible. You just need to make a more accurate measurement of dimensions. It can be seen that the connector can be raised a little higher. Look at the Ncase M1, so the cable is located at the top right.
 
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Gerold

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top ones wouldn't make much sense, also because they are still thinking about the possibility of a top mounted gpu, right?
EDIT: please don't mind this, read the statement below :)
 
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adesignaddict

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@adesignaddict As you can see, in principle, any of the options is possible. You just need to make a more accurate measurement of dimensions. It can be seen that the connector can be raised a little higher. Look at the Ncase M1, so the cable is located at the top right.
We can't get any closer to that top bend of the flange without the cutout for the power connector warping during manufacturing.

The only way to get it to clear the radiator+fan combination ist to have the cutout all the way at the top, cutting out part of the flange that's providing structural support to the rear panel. We could try this, but if it leads to a weak spot in the rear panel then we'll have to abandon that idea.

View from the front

View from the top

Perspective View

(Colors for visualization purposes)


top ones wouldn't make much sense, also because they are still thinking about the possibility of a top mounted gpu, right?
Top mounted GPU only in the sense that it would sit there with an inverted core if we can get that to work.
 

No Hands 55

Cable Smoosher
Feb 11, 2020
10
10
  • ATX PSU support
    • I don't personally care about this at all. I would hate for you guys to waste money and time supporting this, as this is an SFF case and there are SFF power supplies.
  • Face Plates
    • I actually really like the look with the matching aluminum face plate. The feasability of supporting everything would definitely be hard so figuring this out makes sense. I know the wood panel was a main piece of this case, but it seems like selling several different wood panels as an accessory might make more senes financially? Since people have varying tastes I can't imagine a single stock wood panel would be satisfactory for everyone and they would instead be buying another panel to go with it. Where it seems like the aluminum panel is a safe stock option. Just a thought.
  • IO/feet
    • The new IO location looks nice, although it does seem like it could interfere with longer GPUs? I do like the idea of the option to change the port/cables like you described. Sadly this case is being designed in a time when there is not a solid standard for motherboard front IO compatibility. The feet look good to me, too high and it just looks really weird.
  • Inverted Core
    • The main appeal to me is the ability to use an Accelero III or a radiator under the GPU and have them exhaust out the top. Not for aesthetics or anything visual. That seems like a much better option than having to draw air in from the bottom of the case to me. If neither of those options are supported then inverting the core doesn't seem beneficial.
  • 3.5" HDD bracket
    • Nice to hear. i mainly asked about it because there seems to be a good chunk of empty space in the front next to the PSU. This is where the Ncase primarily mounts all their drives, so it seems like there is some possibility to make that space functional here.
  • Downsizing
    • Not a concern/interest to me. There are plenty of smaller and similar cases on the market. I don't see a need to make yourselves similar to them to then have to compete directly with them. This is still an SFF case and it fills a spot in the market that I personally havent found a fit for until I saw this case.
  • PSU cable
    • I don't mind where you guys have it, or by the gpu side. I would trust you guys to put it in the position that best supports compatibility with large tower coolers and gpus and what not so that it doesnt hinder any of the reasons the case is different - big coolers/fans/gpus
Appreciate the updates! Can't wait to see more
 
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fabio

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Alright, thanks for the insight :)

We basically only have those two spots available as it would also cause problems with big tower coolers if we place it at the top of the case, above the fan. We'd be really interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

Option A: Keep it where it is. (could cause problems with big air coolers)?
Option B: Place it next to the graphics card. (could cause problems with getting the graphics card in and out of the case)?
Option C: Offer both locations with a cover to close the cutout that's not in use?

P.s. Could you clarify what you mean by "flat/90 degrees" as it's already oriented horizontally? If you mean vertically, there sadly isn't enough room for it.
Sorry, I was meaning this type of connector, with tail going on the side panel.
 
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Sijnk

Chassis Packer
Apr 2, 2019
14
8
Hello Mosaik-Team,
i also really like the aestetics of your case and you got my interest. I have two suggestions for this case and want to agree to some of others:

1. You really should design the case in a way, that you are free to turn it 180° and have the gpu at the top!
2. Support 140mm fans on the bottom/top. It seams there is enough room for it. Even if someone want to use 120mm, more cut-outs = more air-flow. 140mm = more quiet = sellingpoint of this case.
3. Idea for better cable management: leave more room between the sidepanel and the psu (15mm), by putting the psu more towards the center of the case. In comparison with the M1, there should be enough space to do so. So SFF builders have ATX freedom... another sellingpoint of your case :)
4. Case feed: I really like the apple like case feed of your ATX Version. Would a smaller Version of them not fit this case also very nice? A render would be awesome.
5. Font I/O: I really liked the first iteration a lot better. But the idea of exchanging the cables is very nice. Couldn't you come up if a innovation to get both done? :)
6. Not possible and not your goal, i know... but to make it a dreamcase: Exchangeable back to allow sandwich + a shell with a window in it.
 

Max Fischer

Cable Smoosher
Mar 22, 2020
11
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- ATX PSU - I personally wouldn't use an ATX PSU, and I feel ATX support in a SFF case like this is not important.

- Front panels - Wow. The all-aluminum panels look GREAT!

- Front I/O - From a design perspective, I feel having I/O on the bottom is superior. Because this case will almost certainly sit on a desk, having a cable or thumbdrive plugged into the IO on the bottom would look miles better than a cable hanging down from the top to peripherals.

- PSU cable - Either placement (gpu side / cpu cooler) is fine with me. Alternatively, would it be possible to route the PSU cable behind the mobo tray?

Looks great. Can't wait to see more!
 
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