Advice First build: Node 202, i7-9700, Vega 56, W10 + W7

[Tonkatsu]

Is it bad if the CPU heatsink touches the RAM heatsink ?
(it also touches the Wi-Fi module)

Normally the Ripjaws should juuuuuust barely fit under the IS-60...
...but the IS-60 isn't a very carefully crafted cooler because when mounted on the mobo it's not laying perfectly flat nor at exact right angles, it's like 1mm askew and 1mm leaning.

I'm thinking of maybe shoving some kind of DIY prop stand in-between the mobo and the heatsink, just to raise it like 1mm so the heatsink doesn't touch components anymore...
Maybe that's a bad idea, dunno, I don't want to damage things.

 

[Tonkatsu]

More challenging tho, as I said the plan is to have W7 dualboot but on a separate physical drive.

Problem; installing W7 on that computer requires to mod the ISO, adding USB 3.0 drivers to it, otherwise you're stuck at the very first step of the install (chose lang & locale) since neither mouse nor keyboard work.

Even though my mobo has got two USB 2.0 ports, it seems there no way around that mod.
(tried the vanilla ISO via usbdrive, then DVD...nope)

Annoying!

 

[Tonkatsu]

Seriously, trying to inject those USB 3 drivers into a bootable W7 image and install it on a secondary drive...
...is driving me mad.

Nutsy thing is on the interwebs as per usual, there are as many takes on the best way to do it as people who discuss the topic.

But I have to succeed. *wheeze* *wheeze *wheeze*

 

[Tonkatsu]

My bad about the pcle speed (pcle comes in generations and number of lanes). Most motherboards are gen 3 x4 (Gen 3 with 4 lanes). Your motherboard is gen 2 with 4 lanes. See this chart:

About that, I wanted to ask ppl ; are current gen M.2 NVMe's retrocompatible with gen 2 ?

Like if I buy any gen 3 x4 NVMe, will it work just as fine on my gen 2 x4 mobo (though of course at the expected lower speeds) ?

 

[ParallaxStax]

About that, I wanted to ask ppl ; are current gen M.2 NVMe's retrocompatible with gen 2 ?

Like if I buy any gen 3 x4 NVMe, will it work just as fine on my gen 2 x4 mobo (though of course at the expected lower speeds) ?

NVMe SSDs are backwards compatible. If you use a gen 3 drive with a gen 2 connection, the speed will just be capped at ~1500 MB/s.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Thanks. Good to know I can get any if I want a little upgrade, and in the future recycle it on another faster mobo.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Oh God why do I suck like that ?

Tried several times to create a W7 install with 'injected' USB 3 drivers and failed.

DISM, MSMG, Rufus... whatever, all that stuff is still beyond me.

Had W7 support continued for about only a few months or a year, I'm sure Microsoft would have put up a couple last updates for fixing that lacking USB 3 crap, and I wouldn't be suffering.

(did businesses that paid for prolongated support actually receive such a fix?)


So, doing a dual 'retro' build at the borders of both the older and newer hardware & OS generations, is no child's play because of that, even when the manufacturer provides the W7 drivers.

PS: before you ask, yeah I've tried USB 2.0 ports, a PS/2 mouse, checking stuff in the UEFI, whatever, only a proper bootable - modded with USB 3 drivers - W7 installation image will do.
It's the gatekeeper.

 

[brinstar117]

It's been awhile since I've installed Windows 7 on a new USB 3.0 implementation motherboard. I don't know if this will work for you, but Gigabyte released a series of utility tools that automatically injected USB 3.0 drivers into a Windows 7 USB flash drive.

Read about it in this Z170 release and download the appropriate one here.

I'm not sure a Gigabyte utility will work with your ASRock motherboard but it's worth a shot. I remember hearing success stories of cross-brand Windows 7 installs about 5 years ago. I think the one with the best chance of working is the utility they have for Z370 motherboards which is the same generation as your motherboard. Here's a direct link to that utility.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Thank you! that's one I had not read about yet, worth a try indeed.

It's unusual but a fun challenge, some people elsewhere totally freaked out when I mentioned trying to do that ha ha.
To begin no one's aware manufacturers still released W7 drivers for coffee lakes.

And the never-ending "why u do dat" questions *sigh*, them not understanding no matter how I explain I use some 'bleeding edge old tech apps' which purpose is to make old AV and games work on relatively recent powerful hardware, for using on CRTs and stuff, and I want to have the whole package in a sleek ITX along with the up-to-date W10 stuff too for the newer games and productivity.

What I like here on SFF network, is that people don't ask me why I want to do it questioning my sanity, nor try to talk me out of it.
Tech says it can be done, I'll try until it works period.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Smells a lot like this is Game Over !

I've managed to install W7 using an image that had USB 3 drivers included.

However once I get to the desktop no driver is installed, and no USB port is working at all.

The manufacturer provides a driver for W7 USB 3.0 on that mobo, H310CM-ITX/ac, I have the package...

...however how do I even get to the driver setup files since no thumb drive, no CD drive, no network is being recognized (of course since literally no drivers are installed yet!)

Lol I'm stuck face pressed on the window and I can't get in. Looks that glass is undefeatable, maybe I'll ask ASRock...

I don't believe I can transfer files via the serial PS/2 port ?

Anyone got an idea ?

EDIT: TBH the modded W7 image was not mine, so the USB drivers that were included might have been fine for general W7 install requirements, but they're maybe not right for the mobo itself, for which I might still need to install the very ones the manufacturer provided.
Maybe I'll have to make my own bootable+USB with those exact USB drivers for it to work, after all, and even if that's what i've been running away from since the beginning lol.
But honestly now I am beginning to doubt ASRock even did check if the W7 drivers they provide are even useful for anything.
Maybe none of their customers for that board have actually tried to install W7, or they were all much more skilled than I.

 

[ParallaxStax]

I wonder if you could put the drive into a usb enclosure, use another computer to transfer the drivers onto the drive and then put it back and install the drivers.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Buahaha that's an interesting idea that might actually work. I have that so i'll try after this;

Windows_7_Image_Updater by Atak_Snajpera.

It's a kind of tool like brinstar117 mentioned, but generalist. People successfully use it on current Intel and AMD mobos so I'm feeling optimistic.

Now I wonder if I should go for GPT or MBR.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Windows_7_Image_Updater worked !
from Install to desktop, with USB, network and sound, all working out of the box.
Neat app, a collection of common drivers is included, but you can customize the folder.
People install W7 on very much current hardware with it.

Anyway now hear about; WHAT WENT WRONG during the process.

A. wasted hours running in circles before understanding that my mobo's SATA_0 is basically non-functional, maybe DOA ?

B. forgot W64 systems can only install on a _0 drive.
therefore I had to;

1. remove the M.2 where I have W10
2. install W7 on the intended 2.5"
3. unplug it
4. replug the M.2
AND BOOM ! disk error check looping every start, inaccessible UEFI
5. re-flash UEFI
6. re-install W10

I will pass on the number of times I had to use DISKPART for whatever reason (like first time reinstalling W10 it tells me halfway that it's been done as MBR !? despite me alreadys specifying GPT earlier. wtf ?)
Anyway I did both W7 and W10 installs on their respective drives as GPT with UEFI.

NEXT (final?) STEP;

Actually try to dual boot both drives in this fashion (my build's #1 goal);
_0 W10 (SSD M.2)
_1 W7 (SSD 2.5")

I intend to use EasyBCD, however I am unsure how to proceed, and afraid to plug both drives, simply start the computer, and make the whole system go full derp again.

Could I instead just hotplug the 2.5" while I'm on W10 desktop, launch EasyBCD, configure my desired boot style, then restart ?
my UEFI has 'hoplug' options for each individual SATA drive, maybe I could use that prior to my idea ?

Too scared to go on.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Looking at NVMe options again. What to get ?

Yeah I know I'm limited to gen 2 on this board but you can't buy them gen 2 NVMe's anymore, and well, this one will find further use in a future - gen 3 or 4 - build, so I'm not aiming for current top-tier material, but not for bottom of the barrel either (e.g. I'm skipping cheaper QLC and DRAMless types)

Updated shortlist:

Write speed ≥ 3000 MB/s
ADATA Xpg SX8200 Pro - 640TBW - 125€ (heatsink) [revised controller = poorer performance?]
ADATA Xpg Spectrix S40G - 640TBW - 134€ (heatsink, RGB)
ADATA Xpg Gammix S11 Pro - 640TBW - 140€ (heatsink)
ADATA Xpg SX8100 - 640TBW - 141€ (small DRAM)
Corsair MP510 - 1700TBW - 140€
Patriot Viper VPN100 - 1665TBW - 140€ (heatsink)
Pioneer APS-SE20G -1600TBW - 126€ (3year only warranty)
PNY XLR8 CS3030 - 1665TBW - 140€ (double-sided. problem for heatsink?)
Sabrent Rocket - 1665TBW - 130€ [E12S controller revision: poorer performance?]
Silicon Power P34A80 - 1665TBW - 128€ [SM2262EN controller revision: better or worse?]
Write speed 2800/2600/2500 MB/s
SanDisk Extreme PRO (a.k.a old WD Black from 2018) - 600TBW - 120€
TeamGroup MP34 - 1660TBW - 140€ (3year only warranty)
Samsung 970 EVO - 600TBW - 146€

I've been reading the spreadsheet from r/NewMaxx and various 'SSD tier lists'.

I realize online reviews aren't up-to-date, some manufacturers have since downgraded components to save money, which reduces the performance, like a cheaper controller.
Sucks because the most interesting models like SX8200 Pro and Sabrent Rocket are affected.
You'll easily find tons of ppl making fun of those who buy the expensive high-end Samsung EVO or WD Black, however one thing's for sure is those have consistent components and performance, something that's not a given for the popular slightly more affordable options.
This is why it's hard to make a choice, I guess the 'real world' experience test results are what matters the most, but it's also what requires the most reading and thinking.

 

[Tonkatsu]

After a - muuuuch longer than reasonable - search, I have ordered a
Sandisk Extreme PRO NVMe 1TB (= rebranded WD Black from 2018) - 121€ / £104 / $143

It should do well whether on gen 2.0, gen 3.0, or even gen 4.0 mobos (though at an early entry-level equivalent for the latter)
Apparently it sits somewhere in the 970 EVO (non-Plus) ballpark, technology & performance-wise.
but it's like 20 cheaper (40 cheaper than the 'Plus')

Maybe in the future I will regret not buying a Samsung, but heh, unless the electronics market collapses to extinction, I'll get an up-to-date whatever when that day comes.

 

[Tonkatsu]

Actually I lied and grabbed a 970 EVO Plus, because I found it selsewhere at just 140 and thought why the Hell not it's only 20 bucks more.

Along, so I could profit from those mad speeds, I've grabbed a B365 motherboard (ASRock B365M-ITX/ac, basically the bigger brother of the H310CM-ITX/ac I originally used, similarily supporting 9th gen Intel and W7 but this time with PCI-e 3.0)

Gotta say about the famed Samsung NVMe - although I haven't challenged its full potential yet - that just by running benchmaks, the figures are impressive but overall a bit below what most available online marks show.
Maybe I have something in the way, or this mobo is still a nudge too low end for this NVMe to spread its wings.
No big deal but I gotta explore this later...

Anyway, so, I have finally achived my primary goal which was to have a full W7 install on a separate physical SSD (aside W10 on the NVMe)
I did it this way;

1. install W7 on the SATA SSD using a USB thumb drive made with Windows_7_Image_Updater and Rufus (the older version provided with W7 image updater)
2. unplug it from the mobo
3. plug the M.2 NVMe SSD
4. install W10 on the NVMe using an USB thumb drive made with the app provided by Microsoft
5. use EasyBCD to rearrange the dual booting

Did I get errors ? Yes. Some minor disk checks for both OSes/drives in the process, maybe because of the modded W7 image I used, but it seems once EasyBCD kicks in after a couple check the boot is your bitch nevertheless and no more errors.
So people on tenforums manage to do this without EasyBCD nor errors, but that community had quite high profile members advising ppl eh, so hem, you'd expexct they have no trouble but i'm not like them.

Whatever it works, W7 on a i7-9700, a SSD drive, 16GB sticks, and a Vega 56 will be something wild lol.


Remaining work for the overall build:

• install the Vega 56 on both OSes each with its own set of drivers, official for W10, custom for W7
• investigate the cause for those slightly refrained NVMe benchmarks
• cable management
  
• thermals testing, including Vega 56 tuning
• maybe some pimping
• ...
• profit !!!

 

[Valantar]

Gotta say about the famed Samsung NVMe - although I haven't challenged its full potential yet - that just by running benchmaks, the figures are impressive but overall a bit below what most available online marks show.

Benchmarks run on a booted OS drive will always be lower than benchmarks done in a review, as those are always run with the drive as a secondary (and not used for other tasks) drive. Just the general background activity from Windows alone will cause those lower numbers you're seeing.

Beyond that though: it's an NVMe drive. More importantly, it's an SSD. Whether it measures a few hundred MB/s faster or slower is entirely irrelevant, as those speed differences won't be noticeable at all in any practical application. Also, most canned SSD benchmarks are woefully unrealistic in terms of the workloads they run. For realistic numbers you'll need to test using captured traces of actual PC usage, like what AnandTech does for their ATSB benchmark suite - and as you can see with those loads, even the fastest PCIe 4.0 drives don't come close to 3.0 maximum bandwidth in real world usage. The difference between the cheap, DRAMless WD Blue SN550 and the 970 Evo Plus is a couple hundred MB/s in the consumer usage oriented Light test suite (even Heavy is far heavier a workload than most consumers will ever see, so Light is the most relevant benchmark for >99% of people). Flash just doesn't work that well in day-to-day use, as it doesn't do well at low queue depths. And that's fine, as it's still plenty fast.

Good job getting W7 installed on your system though!

 

[Tonkatsu]

Plenty fast indeed I don't doubt that, people say it's hard to notice the difference with SATA SSD but at times I notice how absurdly (almost aggressively) instant some tasks get on the NVMe.
Almost wanna utter a calming 'eaaasy boy, there, slowly...you don't have to jump around it's only a shrubbery' like im riding a nervous horse.

I'll enjoy loading and moving large things soon though, the relief will especially be around where my refrained GIS hobby involves working with raster and vectors, and though I'm still a novice I don't know exactly why but some of the material means 10's of GB to load before I can comfortably do my thing, which was an absolute torture on HDD, and not even much fun on my laptop's cheap SSD.
Dunno if it will help with very large pictures and video editing, though I'll enjoy moving and editing them faster than ever before, I guess.

The reason for mine slight concern was if these discrepancies vs. the online dreamland, could mean something's not working properly on my system.
(you know, im right in the 'exaggerately triple-check everything' phase of noob-level building)
But everything seems fine AFAIK.
Here's the most common one, which is the easiest to compare to others (tho I read it's not very honest but I don't mind for now)
The ones that are noticeably lower than most benchmarks out there are the randoms at the bottom.

edit: are these the figures that point at the Samsung's sometimes mentioned poor power efficiency ?

--

Windows 7 -> some install it on current motherboards, using the same image modding app, and, apparently they're mostly fine drivers-wise.
So...just how much of their designs and code do Intel and AMD recycle with each of their so-called 'new' generations of products ?
I mean there's mostly common generic drivers included in that image modding app.

And there you ask people around 'Can I still use my old OS and stuff on this new hardware?' and the inevitable 'NO! IMPOSSIBLE, ABSURD, HERESY!' comments typically pile up first, like 8/10 times.

I'm not much of a technical person and yet it always seemed to me almost everything is possible with machines, lol, whatever.

--

On a different note, I have also tried XTU and although the i7-9700 maintains 4.35 GHz on all 8 cores without breaking beyond 70°C (had to set two Turbo Boost sliders to 'unlimited' otherwise it would quickly throttle down way before that),
I have also accidentally dowloaded and tried a profile that pushed it further like 4.50 GHz on all 8 cores, with temps beyond 75°C and close to 80°C this time...
...and of course I haven't written down the original default settings.
Well I simply reduced the main voltage and got the same original performance back, but I wonder if there's a simple way to 'reset' CPU settings without hassle (?), I mean without resetting the bios or something annoying.
This CPU isn't meant for OC so I woulnd't want to accidentally hurt it.

 

[Valantar]

Plenty fast indeed I don't doubt that, people say it's hard to notice the difference with SATA SSD but at times I notice how absurdly (almost aggressively) instant some tasks get on the NVMe.
Almost wanna utter calming 'eaaasy boy, there, slowly...you don't have to jump around it's only a shrubbery' like im riding a nervous horse.

I'll enjoy loading and moving large things soon though, the relief will especially be around where my GIS hobby involves working with raster and vectors, and though I'm still a novice I don't know exactly why but some of the material means 10's of GB to load before I can comfortably do my thing, which was an absolute torture on HDD, and not even much fun on my laptop's cheap SSD.
Dunno if it will help with very large pictures and video editing, though i'll enjoy moving and editing them faster than ever before, I guess.

The reason for mine slight concern was if these discrepancies vs. the online dreamland, could mean something's not working properly on my system.
(you know, im right in the 'exaggerately triple-check everything' phase of noob-level building)
But everything seems fine AFAIK.
Here's the most common one, which is the easiest to compare to others (tho I read it's not very honest but I don't mind for now)
The ones that are noticeably lower than most benchmarks out there are the randoms at the bottom.

edit: are these the figures that point at the Samsung's sometimes mentioned poor power efficiency ?

--

Windows 7 -> some install that on current motherboards, using the same image modding app, and, apparently they're mostly fine drivers-wise.
So...just how much of their designs and code do Intel and AMD recycle with each of their so-called 'new' generations of products ?
I mean there's mostly common generic drivers included in that image modding app.

And there you ask people around 'Can I still use my old OS and stuff on this new hardware?' and the inevitable 'NO! IMPOSSIBLE, ABSURD, HERESY!' comments typically pile up first, like 8/10 times.

I'm not much of a technical person and yet it always seemed to me almost everything is possible with machines, lol, whatever.

--

On a different note, I have also tried XTU and although the i7-9700 maintains 4.35 GHz on all 8 cores without breaking beyond 70°C (had to set two Turbo Boost sliders to 'unlimited' otherwise it would quickly throttle down way before that),
I have also accidentally dowloaded and tried a profile that pushed it further like 4.50 GHz on all 8 cores, with temps beyond 75°C and close to 80°C this time...
...and of course I haven't written down the original default settings.
Well I have simply reeuced the main voltage and got the same orioginal performance back, but I wonder if there' s a simple way to 'reset' CPU settings without hassle (?), I mean without resetting the bios or something annoying.

Doesn't XTU have a reset to default button, or a default profile you can load? It had the last time I touched it (admittedly a few years ago, on a 7th gen laptop).

As for random numbers, make very sure the people you're comparing against are running the exact same load - CDM can run many different configurations of queue depths and threads, and they'll all produce different results. Random numbers are also what will be hurt the most by random background traffic, simply because that's exactly what Windows is doing also. If it's testing a sequential 1GB read or write, the speed loss from it momentarily also having to read or write a couple of tiny files for the OS doesn't typically change much. When it's hammering the drive with a constant queue of random reads or writes on the other hand, that interruption matters much more, for two reasons: smaller operations keep the SSD controller much more busy, as there's a lot more stuff to juggle, and the interruption is typically exactly the same type of workload it's already doing, meaning it can't just slot it in in parallel to an already ongoing long-term read/write, but potentially has to pause one queue of operations to address the other. How full the drive is also massively impacts performance.

 

[Tonkatsu]

I may have not searched XTU closely enough...will see.

Realized after that; if for simply a live performance and health check, CPU-Z bench + HWmonitor running together is a better solution.

--

I can picture what you mean regarding numerous small operations, reviews like guru3D's show they're indeed testing a completely empty drive (not populated w/ an OS)
I have to find more sources I can understand and use, and maybe drop a message on reddit, there's chances NewMaxx could have an explanation (tho it'll be either simple or something so educated I will need time to decode lol)

SSD science is complex in my eyes, though my priority concern is only to know if 'all things are working right~optimal as they should within my build', even just knowing that isn't a simple button click away, unfortunately. ^^

--

A question about PCI-e lanes: well this is how they're used currently (the GPU isn't in yet)
This is how the drives are arranged, the SATA SSD is W7, the NVMe is W10...
...Could I be doing something wrong that affects my build's sanity there ?
(see snaps in next post/page. sorry for the french)