Other Apple Announces Mac Mini Refresh

[TinyAudio]

Apple jumping on eGPudev early’ish macmini stack. Looking forward to Mac Pro next year to see where this modular arc will take them.

Regards the $15k stack “time is money baby “ if you can pass off a rendering or compiling or ML or another intensive task I know nothing about, while working on other things. Seems like a simple way for people to get their hands on pro tools. What does Apple do better than anyone else. Simplicity. All the relevant apps will have this pass off built into the core.

 

[sfxbajan]

Still wish they had an option with a gpu.

 

[Kmpkt]

Apple jumping on eGPudev early’ish macmini stack. Looking forward to Mac Pro next year to see where this modular arc will take them.

Regards the $15k stack “time is money baby “ if you can pass off a rendering or compiling or ML or another intensive task I know nothing about, while working on other things. Seems like a simple way for people to get their hands on pro tools. What does Apple do better than anyone else. Simplicity. All the relevant apps will have this pass off built into the core.

Find myself wondering if this will be what happens when we get PCIe 4.0/TB4. Considering that the PCH will likely be PCIe 4.0 4x (PCIe 3.0 8x) if Thunderbolt can match we'll likely see lossless eGPUs (more than enough bandwidth for the overhead of the protocol).

 

[all-in]

Ever since the word “modular” MacPro has been floating around, I’ve been wondering if the whole concept from the ground up is based around having pcie4.0+TB4. (or even draft_Pcie4.0 + draft_TB4)

The complete (I think?) lack of rumors about TB4 could mean it’s a major (secretive) update (maybe optical only, for all we know), meant not to supersede but
be side by side with tb3.

 

[AMv8-1day]

As great as TB3 has been for spurring innovation and experimentation in a whole pile of ways in both S/W and H/W, the next gen TB4 spec is really becoming a requirement to make a lot of these things an actual reality. Who is really buying a $400 eGPU enclosure, then slotting in a $250 GPU that doesn't mind being force choked by that PCIe x4 slot?

 

[AMv8-1day]

@LUNA Design Any further dev on the 300 series thin mini-ITX boards? Would love to see a 6-core DIY shot across the bow to really hammer home the lunacy of Apple's nutty RAM/SSD upgrade tax. Where the hell do they get off charging over a dollar a Gig for their crappy, proprietary, non-upgradable storage!?! How could you possibly pretend that this is a product for creators and professionals and then slap them in the face with these locked in SSDs?
No thanks. I'll take my Luna box with everything customizable and replaceable for half the price. Intel and Crucial are selling QLC, NVMe SSDs up to 4TB at as low as 25¢ a Gig and you pull this BS?

 

[all-in]

@LUNA Design Any further dev on the 300 series thin mini-ITX boards? Would love to see a 6-core DIY shot across the bow to really hammer home the lunacy of Apple's nutty RAM/SSD upgrade tax. Where the hell do they get off charging over a dollar a Gig for their crappy, proprietary, non-upgradable storage!?! How could you possibly pretend that this is a product for creators and professionals and then slap them in the face with these locked in SSDs?
No thanks. I'll take my Luna box with everything customizable and replaceable for half the price. Intel and Crucial are selling QLC, NVMe SSDs up to 4TB at as low as 25¢ a Gig and you pull this BS?

RAM is not a problem this time around, it’s regular sodimm.

SSD proprietary ok, non upgradable ok, but “crappy”? Far from it...while not upgradable, it’s an amazing storage system, whose brains sit in the apple T2 chip..

 

[all-in]

As great as TB3 has been for spurring innovation and experimentation in a whole pile of ways in both S/W and H/W, the next gen TB4 spec is really becoming a requirement to make a lot of these things an actual reality. Who is really buying a $400 eGPU enclosure, then slotting in a $250 GPU that doesn't mind being force choked by that PCIe x4 slot?

Lots of people who checked the actual overhead benchmarks based on their use case..

 

[AMv8-1day]

RAM is not a problem this time around, it’s regular sodimm.

SSD proprietary ok, non upgradable ok, but “crappy”? Far from it...while not upgradable, it’s an amazing storage system, whose brains sit in the apple T2 chip..

The fact that they didn't bother soldering on the RAM shouldn't be a reason to praise them. Would you praise an arsonist for NOT burning down your house?
The ability to swap in your own RAM, while welcome (even though it should be a hard requirement for a pro level system) shouldn't have anything to do with their ludicrously high upgrade prices. They know that the vast majority of their mindless Cult of Mac customers wouldn't dream of opening up their pretty boxes and have no idea what SO-DIMM is, and they are taking a higher cut than every other PC maker on the market.
Regarding their SSDs, sidestepping the T2 nonsense for a second (it's a blatant excuse to brick customer repaired devices and nothing more) their SSDs have always been middle to back of the pack performers at double to quadruple the cost of the pack leaders. They are charging optane+ prices for budget NVMe products because they eliminated competition with their anti-consumer practices. There is literally no reason for them to design their own proprietary SSD interface other than to block competition from far better performing and lower priced offerings from Samsung, Intel, etc.

 

[all-in]

Again, not “far better performing”. Check your facts. Maybe a little less tinfoil hat.

 

[Aichon]

I think everyone here would agree that Apple charges an arm and a leg for their RAM and storage upgrade options. It just is what it is. Thankfully, anyone who knows enough about RAM to know that they need more from the get-go will likely also know how to swap it out themselves. After all, I'd assume that it's as easy as it was in previous generations where it was user replaceable: just twist off the bottom plate, swap the SO-DIMMs, then twist the bottom plate back into place. That's it.

Lack of user expandable storage is definitely a downside, but they've never offered it in the mini, so it's just as unsupported now as it was before. Most businesses aren't making the sorts of unsupported changes I did when I added an SSD to my 2011 mini, and those sorts of unsupported changes have always been far more than any normal user would ever bite off, so the people primarily impacted by this are enthusiasts such as ourselves who are willing to tear a mini apart.

Of course, upgrades are only half of it, since repairs matter too. I agree that Apple needs to be doing better in that area, and they've been doing some PR signaling in the last few months to indicate that they may know they need to do better (e.g. when their SVP over environmental issues dedicated an entire point in her presentation at the September iPhone announcement to talking about how they would be making their products last even longer), but topics like the right to repair, Apple's motivations in making hardware changes, or their obligation (or lack thereof) to make repairs easy are a bit beyond the scope of a topic about the Mac mini, so I'll stop here before I derail the thread any further.

 

[all-in]

^
What he said.
The Mini is the least offender compared to other stuff (also non-Apple stuff, see how “right to repair”-friendly are Surface laptops/books), not much to get worked up about.
Tinkerers could probably fall back to booting off external tb3 SSDs/HDDs, if fixed storage is that big of a deal.

 

[AMv8-1day]

Again, not “far better performing”. Check your facts. Maybe a little less tinfoil hat.

Honestly not trying to make it a shouting match, but obviously I already did. 1,500-2,500 GB/s is a pretty far cry from 3,200-3,500 GB/s.
Direct comparisons are pretty sparse because Apple, but even the most fanboi site of them all parrots LaptopMag's benchmarks showing Apple barely breaking 2,500 GB/s in synthetic tests at unrealistic que depths on a benchmark designed for Apple.
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/13/2018-macbook-pro-fastest-laptop-ssd-ever/

The fact that they purposely compared Apple's PCIe SSD with a stable of OEM SATA SSDs shows why they're invited to Apple events and real, objectively neutral journalists like PCPer, TWIT, and Gamers Nexus haven't been invited to an Apple event in the last decade.

Despite my intense hatred for Apples criminally anti-competitor, anti-consumer practices, I'll happily praise their build quality and any new advances they make that genuinely pioneer a given space, but don't drink the Kool-Aid too hard. They are iterating in the worst possible way, while getting praise for releasing a mediocre refresh of a product they let sit and collect dust for 4 YEARS while continuing to charge clueless Apple customers release date prices for abysmally old, under-performing systems. Something literally no other PC manufacturer would get away with without massive criticism. Even their newest systems don't support BT 5.0 or 802.11ax Wifi. They stopped being an innovator in the space before Steve Jobs died and now they're coasting on Cult of Mac fanboyism as a fashion company.
The new Mac mini is only 3x3x14mm smaller than the Luna Design DNK-H that supports an open component architecture and a wide range of MB/CPU/RAM/Wifi options.
They didn't even mention the fact that the CPU's are off the shelf socketed desktop parts, likely because they'll brick your device if you try to swap it, even with a same/similar part with identical TDP. Impressive that they decided to tackle thermals and space constraints with that formfactor, but ultimately it was probably deemed easier and cheaper than designing a potentially even more complex mobile CPU thermal solution.

 

[AMv8-1day]

^
What he said.
The Mini is the least offender compared to other stuff (also non-Apple stuff, see how “right to repair”-friendly are Surface laptops/books), not much to get worked up about.
Tinkerers could probably fall back to booting off external tb3 SSDs/HDDs, if fixed storage is that big of a deal.

Totally agree that Apple isn't alone in this nonsense. Just that they are the Alpha and the worst offenders. What Microsoft has been doing with the Surface line with regards to repair-ability, especially with their failure rates and piss poor customer support, is ridiculous. I wouldn't expect a tablet to have access panels to swap socketed RAM, CPU, SSD, etc. but for them to carry that over to the laptop and desktop lines reeks of them trying to commoditize high end hardware the way that Apple does.
I am genuinely happy to see that they finally gave their "value" desktop option a much needed refresh, but the base price point is too high, 128GB is pathetic for even a base model desktop in 2018, and the sticker shock on those RAM and SSD upgrades is insane.
The RAM is aggravating, but as long as it's swappable, it's doable. But the NAND markup on the pointlessly proprietary SSD on a desktop product is absurd and transparently anti-competitive.

 

[all-in]

Honestly not trying to make it a shouting match, but obviously I already did. 1,500-2,500 GB/s is a pretty far cry from 3,200-3,500 GB/s.
Direct comparisons are pretty sparse because Apple, but even the most fanboi site of them all parrots LaptopMag's benchmarks showing Apple barely breaking 2,500 GB/s in synthetic tests at unrealistic que depths on a benchmark designed for Apple.
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/13/2018-macbook-pro-fastest-laptop-ssd-ever/

The fact that they purposely compared Apple's PCIe SSD with a stable of OEM SATA SSDs shows why they're invited to Apple events and real, objectively neutral journalists like PCPer, TWIT, and Gamers Nexus haven't been invited to an Apple event in the last decade.

Despite my intense hatred for Apples criminally anti-competitor, anti-consumer practices, I'll happily praise their build quality and any new advances they make that genuinely pioneer a given space, but don't drink the Kool-Aid too hard. They are iterating in the worst possible way, while getting praise for releasing a mediocre refresh of a product they let sit and collect dust for 4 YEARS while continuing to charge clueless Apple customers release date prices for abysmally old, under-performing systems. Something literally no other PC manufacturer would get away with without massive criticism. Even their newest systems don't support BT 5.0 or 802.11ax Wifi. They stopped being an innovator in the space before Steve Jobs died and now they're coasting on Cult of Mac fanboyism as a fashion company.
The new Mac mini is only 3x3x14mm smaller than the Luna Design DNK-H that supports an open component architecture and a wide range of MB/CPU/RAM/Wifi options.
They didn't even mention the fact that the CPU's are off the shelf socketed desktop parts, likely because they'll brick your device if you try to swap it, even with a same/similar part with identical TDP. Impressive that they decided to tackle thermals and space constraints with that formfactor, but ultimately it was probably deemed easier and cheaper than designing a potentially even more complex mobile CPU thermal solution.

It’s no shouting, if you say aftermarket SSDs are “FAR faster” you’re misrepresenting a 2000MB/s+ drive, there’s no way around it, sorry. You can drop a “far” that way. I mean it in the friendliest way. And the system gets faster every year becasue apple has full control on the controller and the parallelization, god knows how a “T3” will perform, so you’re also wrong when you say this approach is completely uncalled for. There is a rationale behind it and you’d be blind if you think it’s only about ripping off customers. It’s about speed, security and the big picture.

You do realize that Luna design is “heavily inspired” by a 8yrs-old apple design right? It’s a bit ironic on your part It’s a nice case nonetheless, but I hope you’re not fooled into thinking that kind of cooling can perform like the new Mini heavy duty asymmetrical fan blower...we still don’t have the data, but if I had to bet..

If we’re talking enthusiasts with passion-driven budget, I think a Mini + external thunderbolt3 enclosure (2280, or even a complete external SSD like that new fast samsung MU-PB series) would be a better choice...with unrestricted RAM and (external 40Gbps) storage...

 

[Aichon]

They are [...] getting praise for releasing a mediocre refresh of a product they let sit and collect dust for 4 YEARS while continuing to charge clueless Apple customers release date prices for abysmally old, under-performing systems. Something literally no other PC manufacturer would get away with without massive criticism.

When you're in a desert of updates, an oasis every several years is cause for praise. But, to be fair, Apple didn't get away with it. They've been rightly receiving massive criticism regarding the mini for years, especially from their fans (after all, the mini's fans were some of the few people who cared enough during those years to actually complain!). And I agree with you about their practice of maintaining launch prices so much later. It's indecent.

Even their newest systems don't support BT 5.0 or 802.11ax Wifi.

The new Mac mini supports Bluetooth 5.0. Check the tech specs page linked earlier in the thread.

As for Wi-Fi 6 (née 802.11ax), a handful of companies have announced products with draft Wi-Fi 6 support, but the Wi-Fi 6 standard isn't due to be finalized until late next year. I'll grant that Apple could be doing better, given that the second draft was finalized late last year and that 802.11 standards are usually considered stable once version 2 of the draft spec is finalized. Even so, with the final standard not being due for release until next year (and with Intel's silicon not being finalized until just a few months ago), I'm not going to ding a company for not having support in products released this year.

As for their use of proprietary SSDs being "anti-competitive", I don't see how. Anti-consumer? Sure. Anti-repair? Absolutely yes. Anti-competitive? Not even remotely. I'm not trying to argue about it; I'm just confused why someone would even make that claim in the first place.

 

[all-in]

If the Mini is back, I think we can’t thank the “Pro” users. No wonder they made it space gray.

I bet we were this close to never seeing a new Mini again, before the U-turn culminated in the “we’re sorry” love letter to the pros last spring..

Hence the 4 yeas hyatus...I bet in its “consumer” form (silver, mobile CPU, even soldered ram lately) the Mini wouldn’t gross in 1 year what iPhone nets in 1 week...people must realize that compared to the big money maker, products such as the Mini are so small they could almost be called a passion project...now the new Dark Mini may do a little better but will still be dwarfed by mobile devices so I wouldn’t expect yearly upgrades...maybe 2 years, hopefully...unless the U-turn was a real U-turn and Apple is in it for the “halo”, the mindshare of Pros, the culture..not for the money per se...

 

[Windfall]

If the Mini is back, I think we can’t thank the “Pro” users. No wonder they made it space gray.

I bet we were this close to never seeing a new Mini again, before the U-turn culminated in the “we’re sorry” love letter to the pros last spring..

Hence the 4 yeas hyatus...I bet in its “consumer” form (silver, mobile CPU, even soldered ram lately) the Mini wouldn’t gross in 1 year what iPhone nets in 1 week...people must realize that compared to the big money maker, products such as the Mini are so small they could almost be called a passion project...now the new Dark Mini may do a little better but will still be dwarfed by mobile devices so I wouldn’t expect yearly upgrades...maybe 2 years, hopefully...unless the U-turn was a real U-turn and Apple is in it for the “halo”, the mindshare of Pros, the culture..not for the money per se...

Pros won't be very forgiving to non-upgradable storage. If there was 5x M.2 slots, I would buy one. Even if there were 4.

 

[TinyAudio]

Have you been in an independent animation or video studio? Rows of external drives all lined up. Internal slots isn't a big deal.

People asking for GPU buy an eGPU then you can choose what the hell you want. I know for a fact that if they wedged in vega mobile or similar and the base model was $1200 everyone would be up in arms "apple tax what about the people who don't need GPU".

Apple is going I think in a very interesting direction. One that I can get on board with, but like almost everyone in this thread won't buy any of it. I will buy a mac mini because my iMac is from 2011. It is getting a little long in the tooth now. I have no need for a GPU don't game. If I continue to learn CAD and see a use (at the moment using makespace pc) I may have a need for an eGPU. Do I need a stack of mac minis as a render farm? No. But it looks bloody interesting and I will follow what people get up to with the option. Do I need a mac pro? No, but after this release, I am looking forward to seeing what Apple has planned.

"you can only please some of the people some of the time"

More storage? plug it in. Ports galore.
GPU? plug it in. Apple dev team released eGPU code at set the community running.
More memory? plug it in. We got it wrong, now you can.
Need more screen real estate? plug it in.

 

[all-in]

Pros won't be very forgiving to non-upgradable storage. If there was 5x M.2 slots, I would buy one. Even if there were 4.

I’d like to see stats about Pros actually swapping the boot drive of an OEM pc
I think they just drop it in and move on, mostly...and bring it to Apple when it malfunctions...

Another field where just dropping it in as fast as possible is crucial are Mini colocation farms

(and these are the reason the Mini has the exaxct shape and size from 2010 and won’t change anytime soon)