Possible BIOS/VBIOS issue with laptop: I want to turn it into a mini/SFF PC, but due to a manufacturer problem, it doesn't output properly...

[JQM]

So last year my laptop's screen suffered a severe hardware failure. Sager's awful QA didn't notice that the Wi-Fi antenna cables were in the SAME part of the neck (it attaches by two hinges) as the eDP cable. This led to both getting exposed to each other when the coating around the Wi-Fi antenna cables connected and they shorted.

Backlight assembly died (and Wi-Fi/Bluetooth card, but that's easily solved by a USB adapter) and that's on the motherboard, not the LCD. Since then I've had to resort to using it as a mini-PC or "halftop", without a screen assembly and tethered to monitors or TVs. There's a bad problem.

The laptop features a "MUX switch", that, by admitted design by Sager, needs a working LCD for full function.

If the MUX switch is set to "MSHybrid", the BIOS, or other pre-OS boot information do not appear on an external screen and only on the internal, eDP-using screen.
If the MUX switch is set to "Discrete", the BIOS, or other pre-OS boot information DO appear on an external screen but NOT an OS.

Is there any way around this? To allow ALL of the BIOS/pre-OS stuff AND the OS to output via HDMI/USB-C/mDP? Sager refuses to help since they said it's intended behavior, and the army of GPT bots with Indian names at nVidia claim "only manufacturer can help.".

Here's a hardware diagram of how the MUX switch works:

https://notebooktalk.net/uploads/monthly_2024_08/image.thumb.png.93fe39518dc3479b64d7e08a00ef088d.png

Here's a diagram of the ROMs for the GPUs:

https://notebooktalk.net/uploads/monthly_2024_08/image.thumb.png.23605e589afa45da7c859394656c8a87.png

Mini PCs are often made from laptops. I find it hard to believe these companies only find ones favorable to the idea, most companies are probably like Sager discouraging this type of thing. How could this be done?

 

[JQM]

I DO NOT PROMOTE THE FLASHING OF RANDOM VBIOS!!! I took a SERIOUSLY stupid chance at what I am describing here and was LUCKY a modded nvflash was able to save me. To prevent other people from trying such things, I am NOT linking it.

I tried flashing some other laptop's VBIOS to see if it'd work. I tried Tongfang (Clevo's primary competitor, also known as Eluktronics (the primary distributor of Tongfang laptops, similar to Sager for Clevo)), Asus, and Gigabyte, as I saw all three had similarly specced laptops with a MUX switch. I got a brick each time. Would revert to my normal VBIOS with a modded nvflsah that allows side/downgrading, then try a different one.

It seems that laptops don't have their PCI-E ports all in the same spot, which is why it was bricking. Was worth a shot, I guess.

Sager and Nvidia both refuse to help so I guess this isn't really going to be solvable, especially since Sager said they did it intentionally for... some reason.

 

[thewizzard1]

I believe the laptop's "internal" Intel GPU is *only* wired into the mux - I don't think you'll get output from this in any case, but I'm not sure why the laptop won't output normally once it hits Windows.

What I would do is this: Build up a compatible OS on another system, and enable unattended remote access via some app (TeamViewer maybe), and then pop that into the laptop and boot it up blind - If you can then take remote control, play with Device Manager and Display Properties to see if you can get the external displays working. You may need to disable the Intel video in favor of the Nvidia GPU, but this might do the trick.

Also, if it's booting into Windows but without display, you should be able to connect a USB3.0-HDMI adapter for a 'free' display output, and this usually bypassed the onboard GPUs / displays.

Another option would be sending the board out to replace the MUX - Plenty of Youtube shops should be capable, but Northwest Repair and Northridge Fix come to mind.

 

[JQM]

I believe the laptop's "internal" Intel GPU is *only* wired into the mux - I don't think you'll get output from this in any case, but I'm not sure why the laptop won't output normally once it hits Windows.

What I would do is this: Build up a compatible OS on another system, and enable unattended remote access via some app (TeamViewer maybe), and then pop that into the laptop and boot it up blind - If you can then take remote control, play with Device Manager and Display Properties to see if you can get the external displays working. You may need to disable the Intel video in favor of the Nvidia GPU, but this might do the trick.

Also, if it's booting into Windows but without display, you should be able to connect a USB3.0-HDMI adapter for a 'free' display output, and this usually bypassed the onboard GPUs / displays.

Another option would be sending the board out to replace the MUX - Plenty of Youtube shops should be capable, but Northwest Repair and Northridge Fix come to mind.

It feels like it's a fake MUX switch. For external output, it is literally just shifting what is/isn't displayed.

MSHybrid: NO BIOS/Splash, YES Windows
Discrete: YES BIOS/Splash, NO Windows

Here's what I saw about my Nvidia GPU when I booted into Windows with Discrete, this is courtesy of Team Viewer:

The Intel GPU actually disappears under Discrete---this happened even when I had a working LCD though. Although it seems like it was always working in the background to some degree given the issues I'm now having now that I lack a screen.

Interestingly, GPU-Z doesn't even recognize much of a GPU:

And nvflash says NO GPU is detected to even attempt backing up/restoring VBIOS in this mode, for what it's worth.
Also worth noting that under "MSHybrid", Nvidia Control Panel (which doesn't even start under "Discrete", since it seems I lack a GPU entirely there for some reason...), all external outputs (HDMI/USB-C/mDP) are wired to the NVIDIA GPU?

I wonder if they would be able to wire up a fix. I feel like the problem is I'm not 100% certain what the issue is. Does the laptop actually require an LCD for some odd reason for the MUX switch to work properly? Or is it that the MUX switch is not wired properly? If so, can that be re-wired?

 

[thewizzard1]

Those Imgur links don't show up for me, but I think I've got enough info from them

I know I've seen similar things, and I can say for certain some (read: many) laptops won't POST without an internal LCD, but some work just fine.

I think *all* outputs are wired through the MUX, but the MUX's control differs in BIOS and Windows - BIOS may have some rudimentary control to display POST, but then once in Windows with drivers loaded, it operates with more control and splits the video accordingly. There also might be some other kind of control schema which is turning outputs OFF on one of the GPUs until all GPUs / the MUX is assumed to be operating and happy within the OS.

Not a solution, but the solution might only be something like BIOS modding or trace-cutting (or proper repairs!!).

What does something other than Windows report about the devices in different modes?

 

[JQM]

Those Imgur links don't show up for me, but I think I've got enough info from them

I know I've seen similar things, and I can say for certain some (read: many) laptops won't POST without an internal LCD, but some work just fine.

I think *all* outputs are wired through the MUX, but the MUX's control differs in BIOS and Windows - BIOS may have some rudimentary control to display POST, but then once in Windows with drivers loaded, it operates with more control and splits the video accordingly. There also might be some other kind of control schema which is turning outputs OFF on one of the GPUs until all GPUs / the MUX is assumed to be operating and happy within the OS.

Not a solution, but the solution might only be something like BIOS modding or trace-cutting (or proper repairs!!).

What does something other than Windows report about the devices in different modes?

Imgur is either laggy lately or not liking that I keep posting my links to different forums. If you click the link and it's not loading, hit "Enter" in the URL bar again. That seems to work for me, even though F5/Refresh aren't.

I believe the laptop does refer to a BIOS menu each time I try to boot in MSHybrid (which would mean a difficulty POSTing?)---during the boot process I have to hit Enter to get out of some menu, or Windows will never boot. I know some desktop motherboards can boot to BIOS off of a cold boot instead of an OS if they load their process faster than they recognize the NVMe. This never happened to me when I had a screen still, though.

I did make a post about my situation to a BIOS modding forum, but I'm not sure there's much that can be done there if there isn't a hidden menu, since many of their requests granted seem to be modding the menus to be visible, depending on the BIOS. Which, I don't know if there is, there might be?

It really feels like the MUX switch is shifting the location of the GPU or something. Windows literally does not report a GPU as actively useable anywhere. Which... makes sense if it's displaying traditionally eDP-only material when in Discrete? But what is going on with what was "traditionally" HDMI/mDP/USB-C okay (the OS)? Is that now looking for the iGPU that doesn't exist?

I'm not really sure how to safely go about trying to install a different OS right now? Or do USB-booted Linux distros have all of the needed GPU drivers/etc. to still function for this type of purpose? Sorry if that's a weird question. USB-booted should be safe, since nothing is being changed in the boot manager that I wouldn't be seeing.

Humorously, I do have graphical output from Windows in the "Discrete" setting if I uninstall my NVIDIA driver. But that makes the computer quite... unusable, to say the least.

 

[JQM]

Well for science I tried a much less risky thing today. Ran DDU to completely remove my drivers, then restarted, so I was using the Microsoft Basic Display Adapter drivers. Obviously not good. Tried installing the "desktop" driver for my GPU from Nvidia's site.

Same issues under Discrete, no OS. I think it's actually the same driver, judging from the downloaded file being the same size as the notebook one. Why are they even different options then? Weird...

I truthfully do not know how these Chinese companies make their mini PCs from laptops at this point, like Beelink, Minisforum, etc.---am I cursed with one from a rare vendor that just doesn't allow the laptop to have full functionality without an LCD? Did the Chinese companies hack the BIOS or do something to the internal wiring? I don't know.

 

[JQM]

I tried to get Ubuntu loaded---it won't load under Discrete at all. Can't tell if it loads under MSHybrid, since I have no way to navigate my BIOS without it set to Discrete. So it confirmed my worst fear, that this IS the last installation of any OS I have on the computer, as no USB device can ever be booted from again.

I did take some screenshots about MSHybrid vs. Discrete for HWInfo though:
HWInfo under MSHybrid: HWInfo under Discrete:
Aside from the fact that Discrete has almost no information (which is expected---it doesn't seem like I have a GPU actually plugged in when in Discrete? Only the name of it and really minor other information is picked up on by GPU-Z or Device Manager), the DeviceInstanceID is completely different and no longer mentions PCI at all.

 

[JQM]

I found three VBIOS with the same DeviceId, since you're supposed to look for this, apparently, I didn't know this previously, that at least loaded graphics under MSHybrid, but had various issues otherwise (they didn't allow proper HDR, and had other issues in the NVIDIA Control Panel).

All had the same issues under Discrete. VBIOS won't solve this, or at least any VBIOS I can conceivably find. Wesley from Sager said he was going to contact the Chinese team (odd since Clevo is a Taiwanese company, Tongfang is the Chinese one) and inquire if there's anything that can be done last week, no response yet...

 

[JQM]

Well unfortunately I don't think this issue will actually be "fixable". Sager's coy replies insinuate an LCD is needed. I doubt the actual screen itself, the whole 15.6" thing, is needed, but probably something on the PCB of it. The EDID data, maybe? I don't know. They refuse to say the specific thing because they want me to send it in and pay a thousand dollars (at least) in repairs.

But there's another large issue and no trickery like the above can fix it.

When I took my screen off last year I did a thorough deep clean of my laptop, repasted it, you know, the works. Performed good. It's the one year anniversary now. How are things?

My CPU on average performs 8% worse than last year, using Cinebench and video encoding tests. For some reason, the percentage changes for the worse, and it's 13% if undervolted. I assume my CPU needs more power than it did last year, I don't know.

But it gets worse...
My GPU on average performs 60% worse than last year, using video encoding and upscaling tests.

I noticed this happening a few months ago... Back in March, I was regularly playing high demand games in the emulator "RPCS3", for PS3 games. By May already I had noticed that I couldn't play it anymore. After like ten minutes, it'd go to a crawl.

Temperatures weren't too unusual. 86C on the GPU as always, because it's set to never go higher, and 95C on CPU, similar deal, set to never go higher. It would literally always be at this, it wasn't throttling back in March. It's a gaming laptop, it performs at its highest temperature if it's being used to its limits.

And to clarify, no, it has not gotten dustier in my laptop, and the paste should still be fine. Room temps and humidity are also far better than they were in March.

So this explains when it started to degrade, fast. I'm not surprised it is degraded so badly either. Remember that when the short happened to kill my Wi-Fi card and screen, I was on the "Discrete" setting. Meaning my NVIDIA GPU was connected directly to the shorted screen, and dead Wi-Fi card, which it also shared a PCIe connection with too.

I'm reminded of a quote that fits here:
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.” - Jean Luc Picard

I'm at a loss of words. I don't have any backup plan.

 

[thewizzard1]

When it slows down now, what is reported to be occurring - Thermal throttling, Power throttling, or just not hitting clock speeds?
Check CPUZ - GPUZ for those stats, I'm curious!

And laptops *can* operate above 80*C, but they sure aren't happy staying there for extended periods - They are much happier when cool, thermal degradation causing leakage accelerates at elevated temperatures, causing silicon to consume more power for the same performance, leading to reduced thermal overhead for operations (especially modern self-overclocking chips, like your CPU and GPU).

 

[JQM]

When it slows down now, what is reported to be occurring - Thermal throttling, Power throttling, or just not hitting clock speeds?
Check CPUZ - GPUZ for those stats, I'm curious!

And laptops *can* operate above 80*C, but they sure aren't happy staying there for extended periods - They are much happier when cool, thermal degradation causing leakage accelerates at elevated temperatures, causing silicon to consume more power for the same performance, leading to reduced thermal overhead for operations (especially modern self-overclocking chips, like your CPU and GPU).

I see no reported throttling anywhere (Throttlestop logs any time there's a thermal or power throttle on the CPU, at least). The temperatures aren't any different than they used to be. Clock speeds aren't either. As for power, my CPU has always been 55W without undervolting, or 60-65W with, and the GPU always had a cap of 115W, but it could spike briefly higher to about 120W if it was desperately needed to load something. I saw that a few times playing stuff wired to my 4K TV, but that's honestly very rare, it never even came up when upscaling or doing other GPGPU work.

So laptops aren't meant to actually be... used? They'll always have to overheat, it's not like they can be realistically cooled at all by a small heatsink and small set of fans. I thought that was the point of mobile hardware---they were meant to do so? I mean, my CPU is at 55W at its default limit (no undervolting), that's only 10W off of a non-K or non-X Intel/AMD desktop chip---it'd never be possible to cool one as well as those. My GPU is 115W, that's the same as a current 4060. Yet it could never see temps so low when performing.

 

[JQM]

PROBLEM. SOLVED.
After much arguing with Sager and them insisting an LCD was needed, I consulted ChatGPT (not always the best idea for a final decision) and a hobbyist friend of mine who makes handheld gaming consoles on what the "LCD" meant that it needed.

It was likely some form of "EDID" data, data about what the screen is supposed to be. Hmm, from the PCB that the eDP cable plugs into? There's a chip there that holds data, generally. It could be looking for refresh rate or other things, but that'd be saved... on the PCB?

YES.

That's the bottom part of my broken LCD. The PCB. Cut the two flat wires that were going to it, since they weren't needed (using some tracing I was able to see they had to deal with the backlight, which wasn't working anyway). And... look at this:

IT'S ON DISCRETE, NOT MSHYBRID!

I need to make a better way to keep this, since obviously the bare PCB exposed is not a good idea. I have some ideas how to do this and it's not an issue.

And yes, there was a massive performance increase from doing this. Activities involving the GPU are performing at a breakneck pace compared to on MSHybrid.

 

[thewizzard1]

Kick ass!! I wish I could see the photos, but only the top one loads and I can't click on it to see it larger - You may need to set the Imgur option to "public".

It might be possible to wire in the EDID chip to the eDP cable at the laptop-end, directly without a cable - Only 4 pins are needed.

 

[JQM]

Kick ass!! I wish I could see the photos, but only the top one loads and I can't click on it to see it larger - You may need to set the Imgur option to "public".

It might be possible to wire in the EDID chip to the eDP cable at the laptop-end, directly without a cable - Only 4 pins are needed.

It happens to me too. I usually have to click the link then refresh inside the new tab. I don't know why. Been an issue with ShareX's imgur uploads for a bit over a week now.
Here's my setup now, had to buy some kapton tape online because there was none in ANY local store for some reason.
An old saying is "it ain't much for pretty, but it'll do" and I think this applies here.

That would be a huge space saver. I'm not sure how to go about doing that though.

Currently I'm wondering if some of my issues with slowness or degradation are actually needing to repaste? I did it last year (literally last year: early September!) and apparently traditional pastes (like Arctic MX4, which I used) don't work great with laptop heatsinks. Something called IC Diamond generally works better, or phase-change pads, like Honeywell's PTM7950. Although it seems to be hard to source legitimately.

Apparently Thermal Grizzly came out with their own PTM recently: https://www.thermal-grizzly.com/en/phasesheet-ptm/s-tg-ps-50-40
I might get this. I know they're a good brand for liquid metals/pastes. And it, at the very least, can't be worse than the paste I'm using now.