Bluray Discussion

[Hifihedgehog]

Ah, this reminds me of the rising audiophile headphone market of the early 2000s when the e-tailer HeadRoom was a-bustling as the go-to site for the teutonic triple (AKG K 701, Beyerdynamic DT 880, Sennheiser HD 650) and more. I am so glad to finally see a niche being filled by another e-tailer for small form factor cases in the PC market. I would have totally bought the N-Case, but it lacks one thing: compatibility with tray-loading slim ODDs, particularly a 4K Blu-ray drive.

 

[Necere]

I would have totally bought the N-Case, but it lacks one thing: compatibility with slot-loading slim ODDs, particularly a 4K Blu-ray drive.

But that's exactly what it does have... did you mean tray loading?

 

[Hifihedgehog]

But that's exactly what it does have... did you mean tray loading?

Yes. Fixed. Is there a mod for that?

 

[Necere]

Yes. Fixed. Is there a mod for that?

Never seen anyone do it, but in principle it could be done. Might not look great, though.

I have to confess I was ignorant about this - I wasn't aware that it wasn't possible to play 4k Blu-rays on regular PC Blu-ray drives. But it seems from what I can find there are only a couple of these 4k drives for PCs, neither of which is a slim tray-loading drive: the Pioneer BDR-211UBK, which is a full size 5.25" drive; and the Pioneer BDR-XD06J-UHD, a portable top-loader with a lid. Is there one I've missed?

 

[Phuncz]

It seems that market is crumbling, the amount of Blu-ray drive models were already much lower than DVD drive models, the UHD versions are seemingly only produced by Pioneer and considering the rise of streaming media for the bulk of users and the hoops that needed to be jumped through to make it work on a PC aren't insignificant.

 

[VegetableStu]

Why aren't write-once disposable USB sticks a thing...?

 

[Hifihedgehog]

I have to confess I was ignorant about this - I wasn't aware that it wasn't possible to play 4k Blu-rays on regular PC Blu-ray drives. But it seems from what I can find there are only a couple of these 4k drives for PCs, neither of which is a slim tray-loading drive: the Pioneer BDR-211UBK, which is a full size 5.25" drive; and the Pioneer BDR-XD06J-UHD, a portable top-loader with a lid. Is there one I've missed?

There are two slim/laptop tray loading drives, the last two on this list. There are no slot loading ones in existence. Hence, my apprehension and why my current case ended up being the RVZ02:

UHD BD drives
Pioneer BDR-S11J-X (internal)
Pioneer BDR-S11J-BK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-211UBK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-211JBK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-211EBK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-XD06J-UHD (external)
Pioneer BDR-UD04B (laptop)
Logitec LBD-PUD6U3L (external)
Logitec LBD-PVA6UCVBK (external)
Logitec LBD-PVA6U3V (external)
Buffalo BRUHD-PU3-BK (external)
LG WH16NS60 (internal)
LG BH16NS60 (internal)
LG BP60NB10 (external)
LG BU40N (laptop)
LG BU50N (laptop)
​

Source:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=13271422&postcount=108

 

[Necere]

There are two slim/laptop tray loading drives, the last two on this list. There are no slot loading ones in existence. Hence, my apprehension and why my current case ended up being the RVZ02:

UHD BD drives
Pioneer BDR-S11J-X (internal)
Pioneer BDR-S11J-BK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-211UBK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-211JBK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-211EBK (internal)
Pioneer BDR-06J-UHD (external)
Pioneer BDR-UD04B (laptop)
Logitec LBD-PUD6U3L (external)
Logitec LBD-PVA6UCVBK (external)
Logitec LBD-PVA6U3V (external)
Buffalo BRUHD-PU3-BK (external)
LG WH16NS60 (internal)
LG BH16NS60 (internal)
LG BP60NB10 (external)
LG BU40N (laptop)
LG BU50N (laptop)
​

Source:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=13271422&postcount=108

I see, interesting. Looks like LG doesn't actually advertise them as being UHD compatible. Seems that some older drives will in fact read UHD discs, but without the manufacturer specifying, it's left up to users to run software tools to figure out which ones those are. That does leave the door open to drives that haven't been tested yet...

Anyway, even if the M1 supported tray loading drives, those LG drives still wouldn't work: the bracket in the M1 is designed for 12.7mm thick drives only, and both those drives are 9.5mm.

Edit: reading over that thread on blu-ray.com it hardly seems worthwhile to try to watch UHD on the PC at all, given how poor support - both on the hardware and software side - is, and the apparent subpar quality compared to standalone BD players.


BTW, quick forum tip (that I looked up earlier to avoid the same issue on that Pioneer model number): XenForo (somewhat obnoxiously IMO) auto-converts "XD" into the emoji "," but you can turn that behavior off for a string of text by surrounding it with the [plain] tag. Like so:

[plain]XD[/plain]

 

[VegetableStu]

BTW, quick forum tip (that I looked up earlier to avoid the same issue on that Pioneer model number): XenForo (somewhat obnoxiously IMO) auto-converts "XD" into the emoji "," but you can turn that behavior off for a string of text by surrounding it with the [plain] tag. Like so:

[plain]XD[/plain]

sweet!!! :D

 

[EdZ]

Edit: reading over that thread on blu-ray.com it hardly seems worthwhile to try to watch UHD on the PC at all, given how poor support - both on the hardware and software side - is, and the apparent subpar quality compared to standalone BD players.

I expect with time things to go the same way as with regular BD playback: you either jump through a million hoops to use the awful PowerDVD (or whatever official software) with only 'compatible' hardware, or use AnyDVD and just play back the video file on the disc directly with access to all your normal software video filters with any hardware.

 

[Kwirek]

Well, if AnyDVD manages to make a UHD version sometime that is. The darn DRM is what's stopping me from buying UHD blu-ray...

 

[Hifihedgehog]

It seems that market is crumbling, the amount of Blu-ray drive models were already much lower than DVD drive models, the UHD versions are seemingly only produced by Pioneer and considering the rise of streaming media for the bulk of users and the hoops that needed to be jumped through to make it work on a PC aren't insignificant.

Not true: as someone who has been closely watching this, the 4K Blu-ray releases have amped up to almost 10 times the rate they were at six months ago.

Well, if AnyDVD manages to make a UHD version sometime that is. The darn DRM is what's stopping me from buying UHD blu-ray...

I believe the light is now visible at the end of the tunnel and they are getting dreadfully close, especially since DeUHD exists.

 

[Aichon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between a UHD drive and a standard Blu-ray drive nothing more than the ability to handle the latest DRM? From what I gathered in MakeMKV's forums a few weeks back, existing Blu-ray drives are already perfectly capable of reading UHD content off UHD discs, with the caveat that they have no way to decrypt that content. Meanwhile, UHD drives can decrypt that content, but they won't hand it over to any of the sorts of apps that I'm interested in sending it to, meaning that they're really only useful for direct playback.

For someone like me who only buys discs so that he can rip them to Plex, I have no interest in direct playback so I get no benefit from UHD drives. After all, once the DRM is cracked it shouldn't matter whether my drive is certified for use with UHD discs or not, since I'll be able to strip the DRM either way. As such, I plan to just keep using my existing drive (which I connect as-needed via a USB-to-slim-SATA cable adapter), or else pick up one of the existing slot-loading Blu-ray drives if I decide to put it in a build.

 

[Hifihedgehog]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between a UHD drive and a standard Blu-ray drive nothing more than the ability to handle the latest DRM?

Another piece to the puzzle is a UHD drive has to be able to handle the physical media BD-XL, which uses more layers (3-4), optionally at a higher density (33.4 GB, from 25 GB) than the initial BD-ROM standard. Technically, yes, "higher-capacity discs, according to Sony, would be readable on existing Blu-ray Disc players with [emphasis added] a firmware upgrade" (source). However, in practice, most manufacturers are lazy about firmware updates in general, not to mention expecting every manufacturer to invest in new firmware for old, already owned, non-profit-earning hardware is a pipe dream. The bottom line is you have to generally buy a UHD-compatible drive and have the requisite HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 support already present in order to be able to successfully play 4K/UHD Blu-ray.


Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_recordable#Version_3.0.E2.80.94R_3.0_.28BDXL.29

 

[EdZ]

There do exist BD-XL capable drives that are not certified for UHD playback (likely lacking various extraneous DRM gubbins). If you want to play back UHD BDs at some point, I'd probably err on the side of getting a UHD-capable drive even if you only ever intend to play back with DRM stripped, if only in the event that stripping the DRM is made easier by having that capability present (e.g. if it turns out to be easier to strip DRM later in the chain but with the requirement that earlier parts of the chain operate as expected).

 

[Phuncz]

Not true: as someone who has been closely watching this, the 4K Blu-ray releases have amped up to almost 10 times the rate they were at six months ago.

My comment was more about the PC drives themselves, I believe the format indeed does sell, but mainly for settopboxes.

 

[Hifihedgehog]

My comment was more about the PC drives themselves, I believe the format indeed does sell, but mainly for settopboxes.

So true. I do know of a few HTPC owners like myself and a few family members who want the functionality and ease of an internal drive. I have an external drive that I use mostly for travel and commute with my Surface. But I will eventually be picking up an internal 4K Blu-ray drive as well that will replace my current standard, non-4K Blu-ray drive in my RVZ02 “Ryzen Raven” desktop.

 

[Hifihedgehog]

From what I gathered in MakeMKV's forums a few weeks back, existing Blu-ray drives are already perfectly capable of reading UHD content off UHD discs,

Well, if AnyDVD manages to make a UHD version sometime that is. The darn DRM is what's stopping me from buying UHD blu-ray...

I can’t link to anything, but check out the last week or so of posts in the DeUHD thread in the RedFox forums. The AACS keys have been leaked for 72 releases and are confirmed as working with MakeMKV. These, however, do not line up fully with DeUHD's list of supported movies, meaning it came from somewhere else. Given this fantastic news, I will be buying my slim UHD drive in January/February and I will be trying my hand at this soon enough...

 

[Kwirek]

I can’t link to anything, but check out the last week or so of posts in the DeUHD thread in the RedFox forums. The AACS keys have been leaked for 40-some releases and are confirmed as working with a MakeMKV. Apparently, someone found out how to dump the keys from DeUHD. I will be buying my slim UHD drive in January/February and will be trying my hand at this soon enough...

Turns out I already own a "friendly drive", I will begin watching the developments carefully. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Hifihedgehog]

Turns out I already own a "friendly drive", I will begin watching the developments carefully. Thanks for the heads up!

Awesome! Keep us posted!

To correct myself, the list is made up of keys many of which DeUHD does not support. That means the list was not dumped from DeUHD as I was incorrectly told, but it originates from some other unspecified source. However, to sweeten the deal: it turns that that list is actually composed of 72 AACS keys floating around out there. This is a bit larger than the 40-some as I had previously incorrectly reported. And again, the keys are also all confirmed as working. This Google Doc helps clarify the current situation. (For context, here is the discussion thread for that Google Doc.) It lists all 4K Blu-ray releases where it specifies which can be decrypted with DeUHD and which may have a leaked key out in the wild (meaning it can be simply decrypted with MakeMKV).