Discussion Smaller than ITX

theoldwizard1

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This is kind or resurrecting some old threads, but I have to ask. Anything on the horizon ?

With the AMD 5700G and follow on 7000 series APU coming in about a year, the low end of the GPU card market is going to dry up. All you need is a socket for the CPU/APU, a couple of DDR5 slots, 2 M.2 slots. I think SATA is a "dead man walking". On the back you need Gb Ethernet (2?), a couple of USB-A ports, a couple of USB-C ports, HDMI, DVI and DisplayPort and audio. A couple of USB-A and a couple of USB-C on the front.

This could be packaged in something the size of a NUC. I don't think anyone is shipping a USB PD 3.1 charger that can do 140W, 180W or 240W yet, but they will be coming.
 

Gilles3000

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Oct 6, 2018
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The Asrock X300M-STX is close to what you're asking for, if you want to use usb-c to power it, you can use a usb-c trigger to barrel jack adapter, you could even route it internally for neatness.

Or you can g3et a DeskMini X300 that has said motherboard in it if you don't want to make a custom enclosure, its not quite "NUC" sized that way tho.

And assuming you can keep it within 100w for now, you might need to undervolt depending on the apu used.
 
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theoldwizard1

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I obviously slept through the introduction of mini-STX. Now we have to see if any manufacturers pick up on nano-ITX !

I just watched this video Bent Motherboard. Skip to about 12:30.

Googling shows that a finned heat sink and a case fan are the only real solution to toasty VRMs.
 
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Skripka

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In DIY PC space...MiniSTX is the next size down. But it is about as unexciting a space as ITX was 12 years ago. Which is to say there are barely any motherboards and the few there are lack features of ITX. ITX has been around for 20 years but it wasn't until NCase and its crowdfunding effort came along (10 or 12 years ago on [H]ard|Forum) that the ITX format and SFF started to pick up any kind of steam or attention/effort from motherboard makers....and it took 10+ years for the case manufacturers to sit up and take notice.



Given the ridiculous trajectory of GPUs aas well as x86 power draw inefficiency....very-SFF is getting very problematic. The best options, if you aren't gaming, honestly, are the M1 Mac Mini. And that should annoy everyone.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Given the ridiculous trajectory of GPUs aas well as x86 power draw inefficiency....very-SFF is getting very problematic. The best options, if you aren't gaming, honestly, are the M1 Mac Mini. And that should annoy everyone.
Not a "cost effective" solution !

The pandemic screwed up the Raspberry Pi Foundation of the RPi 5. Probably next year. An RPi 5 Compute Module with 8 GB of memory, hopefully with at least 4 lanes of PCIe, mounted to a carrier with an M.2, Gb Ethernet, 4 USB-S, 2 USB-C and the latest GPU would be perfect for me !
 

theoldwizard1

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The Asrock X300M-STX is close to what you're asking for ...
X300 and VGA. This thing must have been designed 10 years ago

Hopefully they are working on a new design based on the AMD 7000 Series (AM5) with DDR5 memory. Maybe there will be USB PD 3.1 chargers available by then (over 100W).
 
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msystems

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There is some exciting stuff coming but it is still vaporware.

NUC 12 Pro should be good (except for having only one m.2) but who knows when it will be buyable. It will have the best thunderbolt implementation currently possible for eGpu.

Asrock has an Alder Lake Deskmini coming "soon", they improved the i/o a bit as it now has 4 usb-A in the rear with 20gbps external monitor support, HDMI and DP, but they forgot thunderbolt & still kept the d-sub. This will possibly support Pci-e 5.0 egpu over m.2, which is a reason to keep an eye on this one.

Yea, next year Asrock will likely have a Ryzen 7000 version of the Deskmini. Even if it still has the same lame i/o and d-sub it should be a capable gaming platform because Rdna2 will finally be good enough for 1080p at decent settings and framerates. And it should continue to be a good eGpu platform.

Asus has the Pn51 which is a bit wierd and looks like they just cut up a laptop board. Displayport is on a daughterboard from a ribbon connector...


 
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Arboreal

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Thanks @msystems for that USFF fix! Some exciting news there, lots of interesting stuff on the way.
Lucky that Asus remembered to add a DP at the last minute 😉

I'm not sure either why Deskmini still have a d-sub, a strange anomaly.
More GPU grunt would be welcome, especially with you look at what console APUs can do already.
As a new A300 owner, I was surprised how much more powerful the hybrid chip on the Hades Canyon NUC was compared to my GTX 1050Ti let alone Vega 11 or even the latest Vega 8.
 

Gilles3000

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Oct 6, 2018
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X300 and VGA. This thing must have been designed 10 years ago
Unfortunately, VGA is still very much a requirement for many business and enterprise clients...

Not sure what you're issue with the X300 chipset is tho, its just a more basic version of the 500 series meant for USFF systems and it even supports overclocking...
 
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Arboreal

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Unfortunately, VGA is still very much a requirement for many business and enterprise clients...

Not sure what you're issue with the X300 chipset is tho, its just a more basic version of the 500 series meant for USFF systems and it even supports overclocking...

Fair comment, I suppose the Deskmini isn't just a consumer machine, but isn't an Asrock industrial product.
I am looking forward to getting going with my A300, I am awaiting a basic APU to get me going; it will really be a budget build for starters.
At least the A/X300 units have dual M.2 slots and a better iGPU compared to the Intel variants
 

msystems

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I don't know but my guess is the Deskmini was originally derived from their industrial form factor boards as an experiment. They probably didn't know if it would sell and it was a low risk approach. Its taking time for them to fully embrace and re-imagine it as an enthusiast platform. Just look how rudimentary the chassis is. Same basic sheet metal steel chassis for everything.

On the positive side, this kept the costs down and its wonderful if you want to scratch build around the board
 
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theoldwizard1

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Unfortunately, VGA is still very much a requirement for many business and enterprise clients...
I find that statement hard to believe ! Most CRTs have gone to their grave. I have. +15 year old LCD display and it has VGA and HDMI.

Not sure what you're issue with the X300 chipset is tho, its just a more basic version of the 500 series meant for USFF systems and it even supports overclocking...
Having read about the 100°C VRMs/MOSFETs I wouldn't touch that board !
 

Gilles3000

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I find that statement hard to believe ! Most CRTs have gone to their grave. I have. +15 year old LCD display and it has VGA and HDMI.


Having read about the 100°C VRMs/MOSFETs I wouldn't touch that board !
They're not used for CRT's but mostly for projectors, untill recently a lot ow low end business grade projectors still came with VGA, and ofc in large scale deployments they just get hooked up to the pre existing cables, which are, you guessed it, VGA. Its also still the default port for display out on most servers(doesn't matter if its old and basic as its only used for and troubleshooting, and sometimes setup in smaller deployments). So yes there are still massive amounts of VGA devices being used.

Well yeah, its a tiny board with limited space for mosfets, if they over heat, either turn down the voltage or up cooling, its not rocket science... And do you know of a better alternative this size?
 

SFFMunkee

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Unfortunately, VGA is still very much a requirement for many business and enterprise clients...

Not sure what you're issue with the X300 chipset is tho, its just a more basic version of the 500 series meant for USFF systems and it even supports overclocking...
1) VGA definitely still very present in the business world, not a problem unless it's used in place of something more desirable. In this case, you're still getting HDMI/DP so who cares.

2) The A300/X300 (a.k.a. "knoll") actually isn't a 'proper' chipset, it's purely an activator chip for the Ryzen CPU's onboard IO die. It basically enables the motherboard to function without a dedicated chipset, saving both PCB space, as well as 5-15W for the chipset (~5W for A520/B550, ~10-15W for X570), yet it still has plenty of connectivity thanks to the Cezanne IO design:


(Side note: If you knew how to modify the firmware on the knoll itself, you could theoretically cross flash an A300 to X300 as it's pretty much just a config setting to enable OC).
Fair comment, I suppose the Deskmini isn't just a consumer machine, but isn't an Asrock industrial product.
I am looking forward to getting going with my A300, I am awaiting a basic APU to get me going; it will really be a budget build for starters.
At least the A/X300 units have dual M.2 slots and a better iGPU compared to the Intel variants
Agree, it's awesome that ASRock included 2x PCIe x4 M.2 sockets! It's SO frustrating when I look at lot of the NUC and similar SFF boards that claim to have "2x M.2 sockets" and find out that it really means 1x M.2 2230 A+E key (PCIe x1 + USB3 for WiFi/BT) and 1x M.2 2280 B+M key (PCIe x4 or SATA for SSD).

Hopefully ASRock does an X600 DeskMini or similar STX board, and retains the 2x PCIe x4 sockets (at least!). With Zen4 APUs (RDNA2 + PCIe 4.0 or 5.0?) you can have a potent onboard GPU but also could choose to connect an eGPU with an M.2 adapter, but without the PCIe3.0x4 bandwidth limitation (woohoo!)

Fingers-crossed for PCIe 5.0 on the M.2 as it would give some serious longevity. If you consider the max bandwidth available per lane has doubled each generation, so:
- PCIe 5.0 x4 ~ PCIe 4.0 x8 ~ PCIe 3.0 x16 = 128 GT/s (where I'm hoping we'll be with Zen4 APUs)
- PCIe 4.0 x4 ~ PCIe 3.0 x8 = 64 GT/s
- PCIe 3.0 x4 = 32 GT/s (where we are at now with Zen3 APUs)
Heatsinks ! GaN transistors.
GaN transistors would be nice, given they should be more efficient and put out less waste heat than the MOSFETs in use today. Though, if they're not a drop-in replacement it may mean significant time/money spent re-engineering, not to mention the possibly-higher cost of GaN vs SiC vs Si power delivery components themselves. I don't know enough about how power delivery components work to comment further.
 
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SFFMunkee

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I just watched this video Bent Motherboard. Skip to about 12:30.
Interestingly, the linked LTT video quotes DB1 as having 65W cooling capability, but Streacom's website lists it as being able to "comfortably handle 45W of cooling". No idea if it actually changed, though. Maybe I could look on Archive / Internet Wayback Machine to check...

::EDIT:: Scratch that, DB1 vs. DB1 Max (which is no longer found on the Streacom website)

If someone didn't mind going (much) bigger, the DB4 is a touch over 18L (260x260x270 mm) and is rated to passively cool 65W CPU and 65W GPU!
 

theoldwizard1

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Sep 10, 2018
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With all of the recent AMD announcements, there should be a real shake up in the SFF marketplace. New SFF products using AM5 socket will probably not ship in volume until 2023.
 
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CC Ricers

Shrink Ray Wielder
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Nov 1, 2015
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I would like to see more SBCs approaching Raspberry Pi size with more modern mobile APUs. Lattepanda Delta and 3 Delta have a nice small footprint, but the mobile Celeron and Pentium lines are like potatoes compared to AMD Cezanne, including their low-power draw variants.

With more handheld PCs coming out some as small as Aya Neo Air it would be cool to see some boards with similar specs for makers and DIYers.