SFF Philosophy: What counts, what matters?

[Ceros_X]

Initially raised during the debate over Optical Disk Drives (now its own thread), was what exactly is necessary for a SFF build, and what exactly should count. I believe the topic is bigger that optical drives and thought we should discuss it in a broader context.

The community is divided about whether the usage of external power bricks are cheating, as you are basically relocating what was once an internal component to the outside of the case. Some opponents of bricks believe in any SFF build you should count the brick as part of the total volume of a case, and to not do so is essence, cheating. Additionally they dislike yet another adapter to keep track of while moving the system.

Proponents of brick builds believe that you can move that brick out of sight and thus keep it from taking up desktop real estate space, and that it should not be counted towards total volume.

The ODD debate is similar - most users do not have a use case for ODD drives anymore, with the exception of dedicated HTPC builds that want to play DVDs or Blu-Rays or other optical media. If an HTPC requires a media device to fulfill a function, should you 'count' the volume of an external drive? What if the computer is not an HTPC, but still occasionally have the need to read a DVD. What if there is no need what-so-ever? How about the same argument for external HDDs (especially in the 3.5" desktop HDD factor which is required for larger 8-10TB capacities) - if you build a computer and plan around using this much storage, shouldn't it be counted towards required total volume (and it's USB and power wart, which are also moved outside a case and outsource)?

So, do we adopt a 'need' based system of what should count and what doesn't, where a Power Supply is always required, so it must be included in volume calculations? If this is the case, let us cast the net further where we look at different systems: almost all gaming systems require a video display in order to fulfill their purpose, so should the monitor/TV count for volume purposes because without it the computer is useless? This would certainly make an All In Once computer the reining small form factor king in most situations.

What about input devices, such as mice and keyboards. Using the same logic applied towards power supplies, shouldn't wired keyboards and mice count towards total volume? After all, it definitely possible to use a wireless card that supports blue tooth, so the wiring could be eliminated but is instead outsourced to the outside of the case. Then again, what if it is meant to be a headless server or NAS, and the only access you need can be provided by SSH - are displays and input devices then not strictly necessary, and thus should not add towards a system's total volume?

Interested to see the view of others on what counts and what doesn't, when it comes to computing.

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

I'd say that what matter is how much desktop real estate I can save. In this regard, tenkeyless keyboard and trackball are.god sent devices.

I'm also an external brick user. Not only because it allows for smaller chassis, but also because my rig eats somewhere around 65W. A regular PSU would be nonsense efficiency wise and space wise.

Same goes for NAS and network AIO printer ... This also me to move those things away from the desktop while sharing stuff, preventing unnecessary redundancies.

My next move will be a monitor arm. While not technically shrinking the 25" screen, it will free the space taken up by the actual monitor stand.

 

[3lfk1ng]

My SFF philosophy is that users should build what fits their needs and makes them happy as long as it's all kept under 20 liters.

 

[robbee]

My SFF philosophy is that users should build what fits their needs and makes them happy as long as it's all kept under 20 liters.

I like this. I'm not so much into SFF because it's small, but because there's so many creatives who are up for real challenges. I can be just as much impressed by smart and good looking 10L cases as I am by people who manage to stuff a gpu in a 3L build.

That, and the community around it.

 

[ricochet]

Good points and I understand where you are coming from.

However, I (personally) utterly detest any/all forms of dogma and the drivel that always accompanies it... by nature it all ends up losing perspective and becomes highly offensive and thus far too serious, fundamental, and extreme... it is too alienating, confining, limiting, restraining, and overly-opinionated for many to stomach and could drive members away.

For arguments sake (playing devil's advocate here) maybe we should keep the SFF philosophy as wide open and as accommodating as possible so as to bring in everyone interested into the fold?

Food for thought; I may be completely off the mark. Cheers and respects.

 

[Ceros_X]

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way trying to mandate anything, just bringing up the topic and trying to start conversation. I am personally a fan of whatever works and whatever is easiest. If I already have an SFX PSU and it'll fit, I use that. If I need more room inside a case and I can go to a brick to fit in a 3.5" HDD, I have no qualms about it. I don't think we should stigmatized any build - I've seen a design posted recently on the forums that was over 20L but still compact and some people were deriding it for not technically being SFF. I think any move towards SFF is a good one... even if it is from 32L down to 24L.

 

[LocoMoto]

I'd actually just adopt a Setup vs Computer stand point on this.

Where external devices although as good as needed for the function may be ever changing, they may switch size and functions while moving where their volume is placed within the setup and your setup might then also be affected by other factors outside PCs like in my "case" paperwork, drawings of theories I've made up during the day on the universe and also a temporary rest stop for misc. items.

A computer will have a static case volume where if the case is modified to affect size will become a new entity and thereby still keeping a static volume, if the computer then has integrated monitors, keyboards, mice and what not, that enclosure, that case will count as the computer.
_
In a different view I have on Cases then external PSUs are an extension of the case where volume should be counted towards the total volume of the case, just as some air pockets due to specific case design..
However I feel it should be specified since that volume won't need to be placed in a pre-determined place in relation to the case.

 

[EdZ]

It depends entirely on your use-case. e.g.:
If your use-case involves the need to play back BDs (or regularly access physical disc media) than an internal ODD makes sense as a vital component. If you have no need of one, then it;s just wasted space.
If your use-case involves regularly moving a PC between two fixed desks, then an outboard PSU makes sense, you can put one on each desk and reduce what you need to carry around.
If your use-case involves moving your PC to places where there is little more than a power socket and a flat surface available, it makes sense to integrate as much as possible into the case itself, possibly even going for an AIO or PC-in-case design.
And so on.

There's a wide range of possible PC configurations possible from STX on-board graphics and a little external brick to a multi-GPU mATX build with heavy overclocks, a 800W SFX PSU and a custom WC loop. All of them can be equally SFF even though wildly differing in size and configuration.


The one uniting factor is a desire to answer "Is there any wasted space? Could it be smaller?". If you're satisfying that, then it's SFF.

 

[ImperialAlex]

At the end of the day this is obviously a somewhat silly topic but hey, internet spaceships -- err, I meant SFF builds -- are serious business!

I'd certainly think that anything that is attached to the PC permanently (or perhaps "a significant percentage of time") and that *could* be reasonably integrated (i.e. storage, readers, etc) should be considered a part of the PC. The "could be reasonably integrated" should be enough to exclude silly things like counting monitors and keyboards against the PC size.
The "permanently attached" rule also means that an eGPU dock would be considered part of the PC in a system that's always stationary but wouldn't be considered part of the PC in a build that regularly goes travelling without the GPU. That'd also mean that external storage that you plug in once a month for backup isn't part of the PC while an external drive that's attached all the time and used as system storage would be.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter but it's fun to think about it. There are also a billion different exceptions based on use-case so at the end of the day there can probably never be a single rule on what's counted as part of the PC and what isn't. My desk, for example, has a built-in cable tray that easily fits a 200W brick so in my case the external brick is "for free" since it disappears into the cable tray while a PSU/larger case would contribute to wasted desk space.

This philosophy stuff is hard!

 

[jtd871]

I'm gonna have to take the "Buckminster Fuller" approach on this one: SFF to me is being as efficient ("more with lessing") as possible - space, power (both available and used), noise.

 

[Phuncz]

I agree with the "build around your needs" aspect. I'm glad the surge of DC-DC power supplies is accompanied with some internal AC-DC solutions so the external brick doesn't need to be external any more. You didn't really have a choice with PicoPSU and equivalents in the past.
Still, anyone who wants to use an external brick is free to do so, just as external ODDs, sound cards, storage, USB hubs, etc etc. Just as long as it makes sense to the user/owner.

For instance, my bulk storage is offloaded to a NAS. Why ? Because I want a lot of it, I want disk failure resilience and I want the files available over network. To me this makes sense as I don't want to buy a 57L larger case for the extra system and 6 disks (Phanteks Phanteks Enthoo Mini XL DS @ 69L) as I only need to carry my main rig with me. And I can place the NAS anywhere out of sight, because it is web-managed.

An external ODD makes sense to me if you need it less than once a month. I had one for a long time, although I can't tell you how often I've used it, but it's less than 5 times I'm sure. If you need it regularly, it makes sense to incorporate it, in your current build or the next. We're not all able to or desire to stop using optical media, but the trend does seem to move that way. On the other hand, vinyl records are having a second wind now, although that's a unique medium.

 

[Kmpkt]

While I don't disagree with the < 20L criteria for the "SFF" designation, SFF for me is primarily for me about putting significantly more power into a significantly smaller envelope than is typically seen for a given form factor (STX/ITX/mATX/ATX/EATX). If someone managed to do an E-ATX variant of the Orthrus in a 26L enclosure with Quad SLI I'd consider that more SFF than a 19L ITX enclosure that was exceedingly easy to build in and wasted space left, right and centre.

I think that as far as what should be included in volume calculations, I would prefer to define it as all items required for regular full intended function of the PC, minus input devices (KB, Mouse,etc.) and monitor (or equivalent). If an SFF computer is purposed to be an HTPC and a Blu-Ray drive is requisite for that basic intended function then it should probably be included in the volume calculation. If you buy a Skull Canyon NuC and a Razer Core and say you have a GTX 1080 based gaming rig that only occupies 0.70L, that's pretty much total BS, just to hyperbole. If you throw an external Blu-Ray drive onto your NuC once or twice a month to watch a movie, or hook up your Razer Core to your HTPC to game on your big-screen with friends every couple of weeks, I would hardly expect that to be included.

My biggest pet peeve with volume calculations is leaving out the AC-DC converter. The most obvious case of this is the S4 mini which is listed at 4.3L on the website (this is by no means a hate on the case or Josh as I love the Mini and own two myself). While this is true using a short or LP 1050ti + HDPlex 160W internal AC-DC, for the vast majority of other configurations this is kind of misleading. The smallest reasonable AC-DC supply you're going to be able to use with an S4 system is likely something along the lines of the Razer 150W and the largest being the Dell 330W @ 0.86L. I think a fair way to advertise this, or at least when stating volume for a build log would be to say it is a < 5.1L case, or that it is a 4.3 - 5.1L case depending on user choice of AC-DC power supply.

These are merely my opinions obviously, but as with everything I always like to put in my two cents.

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

When possible, having the AC-DC outside also help reducing the heat dumped inside the chassis. I'm convinced that an equivalent chassis, with internal AC-DC, will be bigger than chassis + external brick volume. I have no problem adding the brick to the chassis volume, my current design is at 1.7L but I haz no dGPU .

 

[Kwirek]

An efficient use of space considering the form-factor. Honest comparisons considers vital parts like offloading chunks of common "vital" parts like power-supplies and graphics-cards or cooling. If you have to put the radiator on the outside of the case you don't get away without counting that to your build. ;-)
Invoking the rule of cool helps too. :-P

 

[danger]

I can almost get behind these definitions of SFF and uSFF. I'd really like to see the upper limit for SFF come down from 19L down to 15L.

I don't think it is "cheating" per se to have an external power brick. If you are moving your system between two locations, it would not be unreasonable to just get two power bricks the same way you might have two sets of peripherals, monitors, power cables, etc. This reduces the travel weight dramatically while not really compromising on practicality. If you want to bring everything with you, you can still do so and it will still likely be less weight and volume than an integrated PSU... Whether you count the S4 as 4.3L or 5.1L, I don't think it makes a difference. It's not a competition.

So internal vs external PSU is just a technicality to me, but what really matters is keeping the overall volume down - ideally well below 15L. The major manufacturers need that as their take-home point. These 30L ITX cases need to stop being marketed as SFF - they're really not that small.

I'm a storage nut with a 100+TB server and 16TB in my client system right now, so it will definitely be a major pain as I transition completely to SFF clients. That is why I like to see cases like the NCASE and !nverse that maintain 3.5" drive support while still staying under 15L.

 

[Ceros_X]

I can almost get behind these definitions of SFF and uSFF. I'd really like to see the upper limit for SFF come down from 19L down to 15L.

I don't think it is "cheating" per se to have an external power brick. If you are moving your system between two locations, it would not be unreasonable to just get two power bricks the same way you might have two sets of peripherals, monitors, power cables, etc. This reduces the travel weight dramatically while not really compromising on practicality. If you want to bring everything with you, you can still do so and it will still likely be less weight and volume than an integrated PSU... Whether you count the S4 as 4.3L or 5.1L, I don't think it makes a difference. It's not a competition.

So internal vs external PSU is just a technicality to me, but what really matters is keeping the overall volume down - ideally well below 15L. The major manufacturers need that as their take-home point. These 30L ITX cases need to stop being marketed as SFF - they're really not that small.

I'm a storage nut with a 100+TB server and 16TB in my client system right now, so it will definitely be a major pain as I transition completely to SFF clients. That is why I like to see cases like the NCASE and !nverse that maintain 3.5" drive support while still staying under 15L.

(Off topic: You really need to post a thread about your storage setup! I thought I was doing good with 9+TB of stuff)

Perhaps it would be better to calculate SFF efficency not by external dimensions but by unused internal volume?

Also, with regard to PSU, I like to picture the internal power supply sliding through the back of the case and gliding along the power cable until it stops somewhere along the cable and just fuses in place. Still doing the same thing inside or out. Just think that is a cool mental picture.

I think over long distances it is better to have an external brick, as I can throw that in a checked bag and not worry about it getting broken. The same couldn't be said for other components (like an external HDD) that might be forced outside to make room for an internal PSU.

 

[EdZ]

When possible, having the AC-DC outside also help reducing the heat dumped inside the chassis. I'm convinced that an equivalent chassis, with internal AC-DC, will be bigger than chassis + external brick volume. I have no problem adding the brick to the chassis volume, my current design is at 1.7L but I haz no dGPU .

On the other hand, an external PSU must either be passively cooled, or contain it;s own active cooling solution. Both increase volume. An internal AC-DC solution can take advantage of shared chassis airflow, and/or of sinking heat to the case sidewall, reducing the volume of independent heatsinking needed.

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

For me I am not interested in SFF but more space efficiency. If someone came up to me and showed me a quad SLI 22 core x99 setup with 10tb of ssd and another 20tb in hard drives, and it stays under 60C no matter what (OK doesn't need to do all of this but you get the point) but is 60L, that's just as impressive as any SFF build.

 

[TheDreamingMonk]

I used to hate the idea of external bricks, but have honestly gotten over it. When I went small I made several choices...

1. Main storage got moved to a NAS + Offsite Backup, this did two things for me.

• Allowed me to not have to have 3.5" or 2.5" drives in my computer saving tons of room. M.2 motherboards only now.
• As a plus, all of my computers are now completely synced by a small NAS that lives in a closet.

2. This actually happened a long time ago before I moved to "small" form factors, but the principle was the same. I moved all of my water loop ( as much as possible ) to an external radiator box that holds 3 x 180.3 radiators with Silverstone AP181's on them ( back then 3 x 120.3 radiators with GT's ). This in my opinion was the game changer. The box is mounted in the basement just below where my computer is, so it all stays a cool 60F ( roughly 15.5C ) nearly all year long. Outside of the blocks, the largest piece or water cooling equipment in my desktop right now is the rather large quick disconnects that plug into the wall ( hard lined from the wall to the radiator box ). This is a huge space saver.

3. Moved to PICO PSU's in several of my small HTPCs, and soon will be moving my desktop to an HDPLEX.
This allows for moving precious desk/entertainment center space elsewhere. Honestly, I understand the "controversy" of the whole idea and whether or not it should count towards case volume... but at the same time who cares...​

Moving pieces out of the computer case and to an unused location, in my opinion is a smart move. I can make better use of the parts and unused space that way. And currently I'm working on a designing a desk with the computer built in, hidden away from sight by utilizing the empty space between the aluminum stock ( I plan to use 2x2 square or 2x4 rectangle stock, then lay the components flat on the underside of the desktop while utilizing the tubing to run wires and hold the power buttons and USB hub. So the desk in essence will be utilizing the same principle that I'm employing now, while omitting a " case " in the traditional sense all together. You always need a "desk" of sorts ( platform in which your computer sits be it a desk, counter, cabinet or even the floor ) why not incorporate it into that object? Unless you plan to travel with it ( which is why some people went SFF, but it's not why I did ).

In terms of ODD's... If you only use it once in a blue moon, why not have it external and just store it away when not in use? I have HTPC's for all of my TV's, yet none have a dedicated ODD. I use an external that can be stored away preserving a nice clean look. I also wouldn't consider it a specific requirement for my HTPC to function since 80+% of my media is streamed from my NAS. And the rare DVD/Bluray I rent every other weekend is not essential since I could just rip it to my NAS and stream it to the box anyways...

What about input devices, such as mice and keyboards. Using the same logic applied towards power supplies, shouldn't wired keyboards and mice count towards total volume? After all, it definitely possible to use a wireless card that supports blue tooth, so the wiring could be eliminated but is instead outsourced to the outside of the case. Then again, what if it is meant to be a headless server or NAS, and the only access you need can be provided by SSH - are displays and input devices then not strictly necessary, and thus should not add towards a system's total volume?

And this is why it's a slippery slope. You can't get too picky. About the only valid argument ( imo ) is the power supplies. But even then, I say it doesn't matter. Why argue about something so trivial that can only split the community?

They're all small form factors, with or without a brick or other external devices. Different use cases and preferences shouldn't make any difference at all.

 

[Stevo_]

On the other hand, an external PSU must either be passively cooled, or contain it;s own active cooling solution. Both increase volume. An internal AC-DC solution can take advantage of shared chassis airflow, and/or of sinking heat to the case sidewall, reducing the volume of independent heatsinking needed.

I find that the internal SFX/ATX form factor PSUs tend to take up far in excess of their raw volume due to oversized wire bundles etc which also tend to negate possible shared chassis airflow advantages unless cleaned up thru modding. That really bugged me on my Node 304, and sent me on my quest for real SFF. I have no problem counting the external brick in the total volume calculation.