GPU eGPU sidetracked discussion

[IntoxicatedPuma]

This is where eGPU dies. I have been wrecking my brain to come up with a good solution for a portable and affordable eGPU but seriously at the cost and size of the current solutions... this machine will be just better for that plain and simple. http://www.mini-itx.com/~M100-60W and ... oh god if it ends up in a Thin ITX board... or an NUC even.

I don't think eGPU and portable will ever be synonymous anyway it's just not feasible or practical. I have mine setup essentially as a docking station for my laptop - more ports and GPU horsepower when I'm home, unplug a single plug and I'm mobile again.

Most people aren't stuck with a $1800 Thinkpad without a good dGPU though, there are plenty of laptops with good keyboard configurations out there with better dGPU than a 940MX for under $1000, so yes he is a special case. You guys are being such sticklers for details my point wasn't this deep it's just about what makes financial sense.



My point is even low end ultra portable eGPU aren't going to be cheap because they'll be extremely low volume, and they won't be upgradable unless they use MXM which is going to be even more expensive. I'm speaking from experience when I say it doesn't make sense to get a low end or midrange eGPU, light gaming can easily be handled by a modern iGPU for the rare times you need to game on the go.

I'd also like to mention the drawbacks of eGPU's currently and issues it has with TB3, it seems like everyone has a misunderstanding of how they work because it's not as simple as plug and play to get a full desktop GPU. You're going to take a 20% performance hit if you're using your internal laptop display on top of 5-10% decrease depending on the PCIe lanes available to your Thunderbolt 3 port.

I get the point that it isn't going to be cheap, that's why I'm saying it's worth $300-400 to me for a eGPU w/1050 ti. I'm also aware that there is a 20% performance hit, that's still making it perform far better than integrated graphics. Not everyone needs an eGPU only for gaming, and for many of us who do game a low end eGPU still makes more sense than a high end because of power consumption and size concerns. I'm also aware that the eGPU isn't "upgradeable" in that i cannot replace the GPU inside the enclosure, but I can replace the whole unit in 3 years with another one.

I just bought a 13 inch ultrabook with integrated graphics, If I wanted a built in discrete GPU I need to upgrade to a 15.6 inch version which adds $300-$400 price, and doubles the weight but does not improve CPU, RAM, or SSD. For the GPU upgrade, it only gives me an MX150 graphics. A $300-400 TB3 powered GTX 1050 is going to outperform that MX150, and I always have the option of not using it when I don't think I'll need it - which means i'm carrying around a more portable notebook and getting better battery life than I would have with the 15.6 version. I get that the TB3 eGPU has drawbackjs, but it is still the best solution for anyone with a sub 14inch notebook right now.

If someone can make a GTX 1070 TB3 enclosure for $400 (or even $500) that is as small as the Acer Graphics Dock, then I would agree that a low end eGPU stops making sense at $400.

 

[Nightblade]

This is my biggest problem with eGPUs: they're costly and they aren't portable like laptops are. My theory is that I can build a tiny mITX pc with every effort to minimize weight and come out lighter and ultimately more portable than a laptop with an eGPU.

I recently saw a video from Linus Tech Tips about eGPUs being portable, but I don't agree.

My current build with my S4M is cheaper and should outperform Linus's setup, both in portability and cost. To further increase portability, I'm going to buy 2 (1080 res) $100-$150 laptops from craigslist and combine them to have a top down dual screen setup. While i will end up having 3 power bricks to deal with, it still should be relatively easy to setup and not heavy.

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

My current build with my S4M is cheaper and should outperform Linus's setup, both in portability and cost. To further increase portability, I'm going to buy 2 (1080 res) $100-$150 laptops from craigslist and combine them to have a top down dual screen setup. While i will end up having 3 power bricks to deal with, it still should be relatively easy to setup and not heavy.

I came up with a response but deleted it, because I don't think we're on the same page. Please consider the following:

I'm buying a 13.3 inch laptop because I want portability, and am asking for more docks like this:

I'm asking for graphics boost for a portable lightweight laptop. Not for a high end gaming system which can be "moveable". I'm asking for something I can pull out on a plane flight or at an office during my lunch break, or my in-laws house while i'm laying in bed in the evening.

I get what you are saying about your solution, and I find it entirely unpractical and a waste for what I'm wanting (as well as many other people). I get that it works for you, and that's fine. I'm saying that their is a demand for lightweight/ultra portable graphics docks and they cannot be substituted by your alternative. I seriously doubt that your S4 PC, plus power bricks, plus 2 laptops, plus keyboard, is lighter than an 1.5 pound ultra book + 1.25 pound graphics dock

 

[nox]

i think you're waiting for an mxm egpu...

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

i think you're waiting for an mxm egpu...

It'd be nice to have. The Sonnet Breakaway Puck is pretty nice, and so is the Acer Graphics Dock (in the picture above). MXM would be great but I don't need to upgrade very often so anything small is good. Something Mac Mini sized with an internal PSU would be awesome.

 

[Kwirek]

For me, laptops are all about portability so I'd certainly be interested in something of the size above. Honestly, anything larger than that wouldn't go with me anywhere except for long-term relocation. :-)

 

[Nightblade]

I came up with a response but deleted it, because I don't think we're on the same page. Please consider the following:

I'm buying a 13.3 inch laptop because I want portability, and am asking for more docks like this:

I'm asking for graphics boost for a portable lightweight laptop. Not for a high end gaming system which can be "moveable". I'm asking for something I can pull out on a plane flight or at an office during my lunch break, or my in-laws house while i'm laying in bed in the evening.

I get what you are saying about your solution, and I find it entirely unpractical and a waste for what I'm wanting (as well as many other people). I get that it works for you, and that's fine. I'm saying that their is a demand for lightweight/ultra portable graphics docks and they cannot be substituted by your alternative. I seriously doubt that your S4 PC, plus power bricks, plus 2 laptops, plus keyboard, is lighter than an 1.5 pound ultra book + 1.25 pound graphics dock

@IntoxicatedPuma Okay, if I'm competing against this in terms of weight, and something that you would want to use in your bed, that can be achieved, albeit going for a different mod. If you were going for the setup to play in your bed, I would use my other plan, which is to completely repurpose the original laptop. Instead of getting 2, I would get one. same S4M, but for the laptop, I would still take all the hardware out except the monitor, keyboard and touchpad. I would install a control board for the monitor and a control board for the touch pad and keyboard. If I had the funds and patience, I would also install a battery to power the monitor.

There, instead of having a 1.5 pound laptop in your lap, you would have a 0.5 to 1 pound display+keyboard+touchpad combo in your lap, with the S4M on the nightstand next to your bed, with only 3 cables running to it (4 if I were using a power brick for the screen.) Yes, that's more cables than a laptop and eGPU setup, but you don't sacrifice the ability to upgrade for portability. I could even condense the number of cables by mounting a usb hub internally so there would be 1 less cable you would have to connect.

 

[Soul_Est]

@IntoxicatedPuma Okay, if I'm competing against this in terms of weight, and something that you would want to use in your bed, that can be achieved, albeit going for a different mod. If you were going for the setup to play in your bed, I would use my other plan, which is to completely repurpose the original laptop. Instead of getting 2, I would get one. same S4M, but for the laptop, I would still take all the hardware out except the monitor, keyboard and pc. I would install a control board for the monitor and a control board for the touch pad and keyboard. If I had the funds and patience, I would also install a battery to power the monitor.

There, instead of having a 1.5 pound laptop in your lap, you would have a 0.5 to 1 pound display+keyboard+touchpad combo in your lap, with the S4M on the nightstand next to your bed, with only 3 cables running to it (4 if I were using a power brick for the screen.) Yes, that's more cables than a laptop and eGPU setup, but you don't sacrifice the ability to upgrade for portability. I could even condense the number of cables by mounting a usb hub internally so there would be 1 less cable you would have to connect.

So something similar to the Motorola Lapdock 500 Pro?

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

I'm not sacrificing any upgrade ability with an eGPU, only if they don't make anymore in the future which I find unlikely. I think your use case and mine doesn't line up, I'm not saying your solution is wrong I'm just saying it doesn't work for a lot of people. I hated laptops for the longest time but now I value portability and ease of use over performance, so dealing with even 5 minutes to setup a system is going to be a turnoff for me. I know their are many others like me, because I'm required to consider this mentality when making games.

 

[Nightblade]

If you think 5 minutes of setup time is too long, I can agree that we are on different pages. To me, 5 min of setup time or less is not a big deal, if the performance and ability to upgrade is still there. Once I get set up, I won't be moving it at least for several hours. And yes, most eGPUs do not let you upgrade the card(at least the smaller ones that I've looked at don't) They're also expensive and the ones that let you upgrade the gpu are not light.

setup time could be reduced if you had the cables tied together with a cable management wrap.

@Soul_Est yes, it would be akin to the Motorola Lapdock 500 Pro, only with a 2.5 - 4 pound computer instead of a cell phone and with a 1080p monitor.

Also @IntoxicatedPuma , you still increase your setup time by adding an eGPU anyway. you still have to connect the power for the eGPU and connect the thunderbolt cable. You also sacrifice performance if you don't use an external monitor, which would require more setup time. One other thing, where have you seen an eGPU that only weighs 1.5 pounds? the smallest I've seen weighs 5 pounds.

Edit: So I noticed the two eGPUs you posted the Acer Graphics Dock and the Sonnet Breakaway puck. Yes, they are small and light. Are they upgradable? no. You would have to buy a whole new dock if you wanted a more powerful card.

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

If you think 5 minutes of setup time is too long, I can agree that we are on different pages. To me, 5 min of setup time or less is not a big deal, if the performance and ability to upgrade is still there. Once I get set up, I won't be moving it at least for several hours. And yes, most eGPUs do not let you upgrade the card(at least the smaller ones that I've looked at don't) They're also expensive and the ones that let you upgrade the gpu are not light.

I wasn't aware the eGPU could not be unplugged from the laptop and replaced with another one, but now that I know its soldered to the laptop I'll reconsider buying one. As far as expensive, I already explained that the price is acceptable when portability is important.

Also @IntoxicatedPuma , you still increase your setup time by adding an eGPU anyway. you still have to connect the power for the eGPU and connect the thunderbolt cable. You also sacrifice performance if you don't use an external monitor, which would require more setup time. One other thing, where have you seen an eGPU that only weighs 1.5 pounds? the smallest I've seen weighs 5 pounds.

I wasn't aware plugging in a type C cable required a lot of setup but i'll consider that.
Already answered these, i'm aware that they take a 20% performance hit, and I still don't care. Acer makes one that's under 1.5 pounds, Sonnet makes one that is 4 pounds and charges the laptop while using.

I'm not quite sure what to say at this point. Can your setup fit in a small backpack or a sling bag? Can your setup be used in a place that doesn't have a desk? What if I decide to go from the desk and sit on the couch for awhile? If i'm laying in bed do I need to make sure I have a 2 meter long HDMI cable running from my desktop on the floor to my portable monitor setup on my lap? Is my portable monitor going to be a bit back heavy or do I need to add weights to the front to keep it from tipping over? Can I unplug the GPU quickly from the desktop and continue using the setup without any power connection? If I live outside of N America where outlets don't have dual plugs, do I need to carry a power strip/multi plug outlet as well? Do I need to carry an additional laptop around in case I find myself in a situation where I want to use a computer without being able to plug it into the wall?

I get that from a price to performance perspective, the eGPU doesn't make sense, but not everyone cares about that ratio and some people are willing to pay more for ease of use and portability. Some people also don't have a choice, or the alternative is more expensive.

Again, I'm not saying your setup is wrong, I'm saying that this argument that "eGPU is pointless because desktop is more powerful for the price" doesn't consider reality and is totally ignorant of how most people use computers. The fact that most mainstream manufacturers are producing eGPU's while us SFF enthusiasts are bundling together on a forum setup by other enthusiasts should make it painfully obvious that portable desktops are not a high demand item by the general public.

 

[Nightblade]

I wasn't aware the eGPU could not be unplugged from the laptop and replaced with another one, but now that I know its soldered to the laptop I'll reconsider buying one. As far as expensive, I already explained that the price is acceptable when portability is important.

In terms of price and materials, by your definition, an upgrade is a whole new set of hardware, not just the internals(which isn't wrong, but its asking price is more)

I wasn't aware plugging in a type C cable required a lot of setup but i'll consider that.
Already answered these, i'm aware that they take a 20% performance hit, and I still don't care. Acer makes one that's under 1.5 pounds, Sonnet makes one that is 4 pounds and charges the laptop while using.

Yes I saw, you might not have seen my edited post. Again, those are one off units, the internals can't be upgraded unless you replace the entire unit.

I'm not quite sure what to say at this point. Can your setup fit in a small backpack or a sling bag? Can your setup be used in a place that doesn't have a desk? If i'm laying in bed do I need to make sure I have a 2 meter long HDMI cable running from my desktop on the floor to my portable monitor setup on my lap? Is my portable monitor going to be a bit back heavy or do I need to add weights to the front to keep it from tipping over? Can I unplug the GPU quickly from the desktop and continue using the setup without any power connection? If I live outside of N America where outlets don't have dual plugs, do I need to carry a power strip/multi plug outlet as well? Do I need to carry an additional laptop around in case I find myself in a situation where I want to use a computer without being able to plug it into the wall?

1. yes.
2. yes(if you use the second option I provided, which was repurpose the laptop screen, keyboard and touchpad into something like what @Soul_Est mentioned, the Motorola Lapdock 500 Pro)

3. You already use a type c cable running to your eGPU, how is one more cord going to make much of a difference?

4. It won't be back heavy if you add a battery into the base. At which can also solve your problem of outlets as they make batteries with either a dc output or ac output on the side, You could cut a hole in the side of the base to fit an opening for the dc port and/or ac port for your desktop, and run the other connection to power your laptop screen. That way you would never have to have a separate power for the monitor, just power it through the battery circuit and charge when necessary. the extra 12v dc output could be used to connect to the desktop portion.

5. No, this is the only flaw to the plan. you couldn't simply use the laptop portion by itself, as all the main components are in the desktop portion. Unless, you had a phone and use the laptop and desktop solution like the lapdog, but this is probably not what you are looking for.

6. While I agree this is not for everyone, as you have already stated. If I were in a situation that I was only limited to one plug, I would probably either carry around 3 port outlet splitter(those are very portable) and use that, otherwise, I might just go with the eGPU solution and pay the premium. But, since I live in America, and have choices, I choose to have the ability to upgrade, performance, and portability over more portability, no ability to upgrade and less performance.

7. There is the option to simply purchase the $100 laptop as is, without taking anything out, use software to remotely control the desktop portion, and simply connect the hdmi cable to the laptop and switch the screen to view the desktop portion on the laptop. But this has drawbacks as you have the added cost of the software, are using the touchpad and keyboard wirelessly and you would end up having two power bricks to deal with. Not to mention you would have to deal with exhaust from two machines instead of 1 and a half.

I get that from a price to performance perspective, the eGPU doesn't make sense, but not everyone cares about that ratio and some people are willing to pay more for ease of use and portability. Some people also don't have a choice, or the alternative is more expensive.

Again, I'm not saying your setup is wrong, I'm saying that this argument that "eGPU is pointless because desktop is more powerful for the price" doesn't consider reality and is totally ignorant of how most people use computers. The fact that most mainstream manufacturers are producing eGPU's while us SFF enthusiasts are bundling together on a forum setup by other enthusiasts should make it painfully obvious that portable desktops are not a high demand item by the general public.

I can agree to disagree. I simply believe that in my circumstances that If i can have a portable desktop with minimum hassle over the added cost of laptop + eGPU I think it is worth it.

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

Except the solutions you are proposing don't exist yet, or at least i'm assuming based on the way you answered #2, #4, #7, so the "minimum hassle" means building your own setup as mentioned above. The eGPU solutions are available for purchase now. If something like a motorola lapdock did exist and worked as described, and cost around $500, then you do have a compelling arguement, but still run into the issue of the Laptop dock requires the desktop to run, which means its taking a major hit on portability and required to be plugged in to work. So for many people this still isn't a good solution as they still need to have an additional laptop/device to be portable.

I'm still going to disagree with the "you can't upgrade an egpu" because I can simply buy a new one and plug it in while disposing of the previous one. The desktop also needs to purchase an entirely new GPU unit and have it installed while disposing of the old one. The only difference is the cost of the eGPU is higher due to the housing and form factor, but this does not change the fact that it can be replaced with an upgraded version. Unless eGPU's stop supporting TB3 in the near future, they can be replaced with an upgrade.

 

[Nightblade]

@IntoxicatedPuma At this point we are just arguing semantics with the term "upgrading." To me, upgrading means only part of the internal component or components are change to a stronger/better/faster version. To me, what you're saying with "upgrading" sounds just like replacing. as in, the whole unit, rather than just part of it. You can certainly do that, but to me an eGPU is a unit on its own that contains a graphics card inside. So if you can swap out the actual graphics card and not require to change out the case and power supply that are built into the unit, that I would consider as "upgrading"