Production Winter One -- 15.6L SFF case, 3090 Support, 3-slot GPUs, dual 280mm radiators, CFD Optimized Design

mxj1

Cable-Tie Ninja
Sep 13, 2020
179
450
It’s been stated earlier, but there’s basically zero gen4 risers on the market that will work across all GPU/motherboard combinations. Some on the horizon, sure, but they’re also solidly north of $100 a pop and whether they will actually _work_ is a total question mark right now. Better to use a gen3 riser that is known to work than a gen4 that will drive up costs significantly and potentially cause major issues In folks’ builds.
I can get on board with this.

I would have no issue buying a gen 4 cable for the WinterOne at a later date - especially if it was available through @WinterCharm
 

WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
423
1,906
Does any case manufacturer other than Louqe ship their case with a PCI-E 4.0 cable? Both linkup and loque cables are expensive, so I can see why its not included.

Both options are also not fully certified yet. Certification of these types of things take time. I have zero interest in giving people a cable that I know isn't standards-certified for PCIE Gen 4. This is why all of these cables also have a ton of issues with various Motherboard / GPU combinations. None of them are actually following the PCIE 4.0 standard. They're just developing cables with better signal integrity, hoping to make it work, but none of these cables have passed the 4.0 standards yet. Actual, Certified PCIE 4.0 cables, will not be out until late 2021. At that time, we will offer 4.0 Cables with Winter One, and an upgrade path for existing users.

Dan A4 has the 3M Riser that is Gen4 compatible

Yes, it's "compatible", mainly because the 3M Cable has excellent signal integrity. But, look at the 3M Website where that riser cable is listed.

They still do not list this cable as PCIE 4.0 compliant. This creates a problem. I cannot sell you a cable that I claim "should work" with PCIE 4.0, but if you look up the cable, PCIE 4.0 is literally not mentioned in the official Spec on the 3M website.

If something goes wrong, and your cable doesn't work with PCIE 4.0, and I ask 3M for a replacement, they'll say "nope -- you're using it out of spec". If it doesn't work with PCIE 4.0, then I cannot support / replace those cables, if they are working fine with PCIE 3.0

This is what I mean when I say it makes customer support and testing Incredibly complex. Does 4.0 Not work because of your GPU? Your Motherboard? a Bad Cable? Impossible to know, unless we have a standards verified cable, which, none of the PCIE 4.0 cables on the market right now, are actually standards compliant.

This is why they are all labeled "PCIE 4.0 compatible" until someone makes a "PCIE 4.0 x16 riser" Cable (without the "compatible" moniker) there isn't a cable I can source and sell to all of you that will work with **all** PCIE 4.0 motherboards and GPUs. It may work, but it also might not. There is no guarantee.

yep, this is the case if you are on the latest generation of hardware CPU-Motherboard Chipset-GPU and use a Gen3 risers. It gets to a point that you wonder why pay more for all the troubles.

this gives me even more appreciation to Dan's foresight into including the 3M riser with the A4 in the first place. and now even Wahaha, after staunchly rebuffed so many Gen4 riser requests for the T1, is re-designing the case to support classic layout to getaway from this riser mess.

hopefully @WinterCharm can include the 3M riser without any price increase or provide it as an 'upgrade' option to backers. I'm not a backer myself but personally I think it warrants a thinking

The Riser Mess is just a matter of waiting until Properly Certified 4.0 Risers are a thing. This unreliability with various 4.0 risers is because none of the cables / risers are certified yet. Preventing this mess is EXACTLY why standards and standards bodies exist. Personally, I do not see the point of charging anyone more for a "maybe 4.0" cable, when there are reliable 3.0 cables that I can fully support, If something goes wrong.

It’s been stated earlier, but there’s basically zero gen4 risers on the market that will work across all GPU/motherboard combinations. Some on the horizon, sure, but they’re also solidly north of $100 a pop and whether they will actually _work_ is a total question mark right now. Better to use a gen3 riser that is known to work than a gen4 that will drive up costs significantly and potentially cause major issues In folks’ builds.

Exactly. I choose to wait because I would rather tell everyone "Switch the X16 slot to PCIE 3.0 mode" as a warning in the user manual. (currently, no performance difference) and have a constant, reliable experience, than charge you all an extra $40 for a "Maybe PCIE 4.0" Cable, that I cannot even support should something go wrong, because it's not in-spec per the manufacturer.

Paying extra for a 4.0 cable, that doesn't actually work with your particular 4.0 motherboard / GPU combo, would lead to a huge number of upset people. I don't want anyone to feel awful if they pay extra for 4.0 cable, but it doesn't work for your hardware. I also don't want to charge anyone for a cable I cannot be sure will work with your hardware.

I am just as frustrated with the Riser Cable situation right now. However, I refuse to sell you a cable that I cannot be sure will work with 100% of PCIE 4.0 hardware. I hear your requests for this feature, and they're not being ignored -- a certified cable just does not exist yet. As soon as it does, that option will be made available.
 

Post-Newt

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 12, 2020
105
247
Haven't seen any talk about build plans for a while. Mocked up something real quick on what I've been planning since I first saw the 3080FE board shape in September. Assumed waterblocks would put terminals in the triangular void which turned out to be the case. Can't wait to see someone do this build and I can't think of any case out there more perfect for this gpu block terminal location. If only the 3080FE actually existed...
 
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WinterCharm

Master of Cramming
Original poster
Jan 19, 2019
423
1,906
Just a quick note for anyone wondering: The next Update will be live in ~4 hours, since the last few days included a bit of much-needed rest.

Edit 1: well the system migration we're in the middle of is taking longer than expected. Update will happen Tuesday. Sorry about that, everyone. :3

Edit 2: update is live. :)
 
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Nero

Average Stuffer
May 28, 2020
61
68
Hi @WinterCharm , the case states max GPU length of 315, is this the absolute max length of the maximum comfortable length?

I have a 3090 strix on the way (318mm length) so I wonder if it'll fit in this case. Happy holidays ;)
 

biopunk

Airflow Optimizer
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2020
243
351
Both options are also not fully certified yet. Certification of these types of things take time. I have zero interest in giving people a cable that I know isn't standards-certified for PCIE Gen 4. This is why all of these cables also have a ton of issues with various Motherboard / GPU combinations. None of them are actually following the PCIE 4.0 standard. They're just developing cables with better signal integrity, hoping to make it work, but none of these cables have passed the 4.0 standards yet. Actual, Certified PCIE 4.0 cables, will not be out until late 2021. At that time, we will offer 4.0 Cables with Winter One, and an upgrade path for existing users.



Yes, it's "compatible", mainly because the 3M Cable has excellent signal integrity. But, look at the 3M Website where that riser cable is listed.

They still do not list this cable as PCIE 4.0 compliant. This creates a problem. I cannot sell you a cable that I claim "should work" with PCIE 4.0, but if you look up the cable, PCIE 4.0 is literally not mentioned in the official Spec on the 3M website.

If something goes wrong, and your cable doesn't work with PCIE 4.0, and I ask 3M for a replacement, they'll say "nope -- you're using it out of spec". If it doesn't work with PCIE 4.0, then I cannot support / replace those cables, if they are working fine with PCIE 3.0

This is what I mean when I say it makes customer support and testing Incredibly complex. Does 4.0 Not work because of your GPU? Your Motherboard? a Bad Cable? Impossible to know, unless we have a standards verified cable, which, none of the PCIE 4.0 cables on the market right now, are actually standards compliant.

This is why they are all labeled "PCIE 4.0 compatible" until someone makes a "PCIE 4.0 x16 riser" Cable (without the "compatible" moniker) there isn't a cable I can source and sell to all of you that will work with **all** PCIE 4.0 motherboards and GPUs.
It may work, but it also might not. There is no guarantee.



The Riser Mess is just a matter of waiting until Properly Certified 4.0 Risers are a thing. This unreliability with various 4.0 risers is because none of the cables / risers are certified yet. Preventing this mess is EXACTLY why standards and standards bodies exist. Personally, I do not see the point of charging anyone more for a "maybe 4.0" cable, when there are reliable 3.0 cables that I can fully support, If something goes wrong.



Exactly. I choose to wait because I would rather tell everyone "Switch the X16 slot to PCIE 3.0 mode" as a warning in the user manual. (currently, no performance difference) and have a constant, reliable experience, than charge you all an extra $40 for a "Maybe PCIE 4.0" Cable, that I cannot even support should something go wrong, because it's not in-spec per the manufacturer.

Paying extra for a 4.0 cable, that doesn't actually work with your particular 4.0 motherboard / GPU combo, would lead to a huge number of upset people. I don't want anyone to feel awful if they pay extra for 4.0 cable, but it doesn't work for your hardware. I also don't want to charge anyone for a cable I cannot be sure will work with your hardware.

I am just as frustrated with the Riser Cable situation right now. However, I refuse to sell you a cable that I cannot be sure will work with 100% of PCIE 4.0 hardware. I hear your requests for this feature, and they're not being ignored -- a certified cable just does not exist yet. As soon as it does, that option will be made available.
Still don't get why you couldn't source 3M riser and don't claim that it's PCIe 4.0 compatible, consumers would be able to use it in 4.0 mode at their own risk and lots of frustration would be avoided (as Dan A4 v4.1 owners seem happy) until a certified 4.0 riser becomes available.
 
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mxj1

Cable-Tie Ninja
Sep 13, 2020
179
450
Still don't get why you couldn't source 3M riser and don't claim that it's PCIe 4.0 compatible, consumers would be able to use it in 4.0 mode at their own risk and lots of frustration would be avoided (as Dan A4 v4.1 owners seem happy) until a certified 4.0 riser becomes available.
I think at this point, providing a reliable 3.0 cable to users is a better move than saying 'here's a cable. I can't guarantee at works at 4.0, but you might get lucky.'

...and there's a $40 cost up (and probably delay)...
 

Post-Newt

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 12, 2020
105
247
What else can we nit-pick about a case that's already entering production with parts/hardware ordered... Man what's up with that power switch? Cherry MX is clearly superior.

But seriously, let's look at this 2021 "case to beat" (at least according to OT) as an example. NCase and Lian Li teamed up to make this mythical case and still decided to go with a 3.0 riser. I wonder why they would choose 3.0 instead of trying to be more competitive with the next gen riser.

On a side note: I like how the winter one is only 1L more in volume than the meshilicious case with literally twice the radiator/fan volume available.
 

biopunk

Airflow Optimizer
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2020
243
351
What else can we nit-pick about a case that's already entering production with parts/hardware ordered... Man what's up with that power switch? Cherry MX is clearly superior.

But seriously, let's look at this 2021 "case to beat" (at least according to OT) as an example. NCase and Lian Li teamed up to make this mythical case and still decided to go with a 3.0 riser. I wonder why they would choose 3.0 instead of trying to be more competitive with the next gen riser.

On a side note: I like how the winter one is only 1L more in volume than the meshilicious case with literally twice the radiator/fan volume available.
Criticizing a decision that will affect literally every Winter One/Mesh-Licious owner in 2021 who will use the latest-gen hardware. Must be nitpicking!

I agree with what OT said about riser cables in one of his previous videos, idk why in the review he ignored the fact that Mesh-Licious will also ship with 3.0 riser cable.
 
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ckrueger99

Trash Compacter
Apr 19, 2020
36
57
Criticizing a decision that will affect literally every Winter One/Mesh-Licious owner in 2021 who will use the latest-gen hardware. Must be nitpicking!

I agree with what OT said about riser cables in one of his previous videos, idk why in the review he ignored the fact that Mesh-Licious will also ship with 3.0 riser cable.
The Winter One will wipe the floor with the Mesh. Twice as many 280mm rads, plus chimney-effect air flow with fan and pump noise encased within the solid side walls. And that other case is butt ugly.
 
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robojim

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jun 18, 2020
228
205
What else can we nit-pick about a case that's already entering production with parts/hardware ordered... Man what's up with that power switch? Cherry MX is clearly superior.

But seriously, let's look at this 2021 "case to beat" (at least according to OT) as an example. NCase and Lian Li teamed up to make this mythical case and still decided to go with a 3.0 riser. I wonder why they would choose 3.0 instead of trying to be more competitive with the next gen riser.

On a side note: I like how the winter one is only 1L more in volume than the meshilicious case with literally twice the radiator/fan volume available.
2019 and on, Kailh shits on anything Cherry
 

BRSxIgnition

Airflow Optimizer
Mar 15, 2020
351
494
The Winter One will wipe the floor with the Mesh. Twice as many 280mm rads, plus chimney-effect air flow with fan and pump noise encased within the solid side walls. And that other case is butt ugly.

You sound super mature. /s

They're different products targeting different price brackets and audiences, and both will have the same shitty riser cable problem.

That's the story here; not 'which one wins' or 'is ugly.'
 

robojim

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jun 18, 2020
228
205
The Winter One will wipe the floor with the Mesh. Twice as many 280mm rads, plus chimney-effect air flow with fan and pump noise encased within the solid side walls. And that other case is butt ugly.
i have no doubt the W1 will be a superior product from both build quality and performance but the meshlicious is going to cost almost 3x less and being a vertical layout means less overall desk space used. For my own use cases, a single 280mm should be fine for a CPU and GPU loop for instance. I actually think the SPK will be what really makes W1 stand out when it's ready.
 

Post-Newt

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 12, 2020
105
247
Criticizing a decision that will affect literally every Winter One/Mesh-Licious owner in 2021 who will use the latest-gen hardware. Must be nitpicking!
Sorry, I was playing off the fastener discussion from earlier as well. Did not realize riser cables were a passionate topic. However, for the sake of getting this project funded, I suspect the cheaper riser helped more than hurt and I support any decision that gives this case concept the highest probability of becoming a reality. Hopefully there is a reasonably-priced 4.0 riser out there in the future we can use in this case once gen4 parts are more mainstream.
2019 and on, Kailh shits on anything Cherry
I was kidding about the power switch.
 

thelaughingman

SFF Guru
Jul 14, 2018
1,237
1,331
3M PCIe 3.0 riser is reliable 😉 but I do get the cost argument.
Sorry, I was playing off the fastener discussion from earlier as well. Did not realize riser cables were a passionate topic. However, for the sake of getting this project funded, I suspect the cheaper riser helped more than hurt and I support any decision that gives this case concept the highest probability of becoming a reality. Hopefully there is a reasonably-priced 4.0 riser out there in the future we can use in this case once gen4 parts are more mainstream.

I was kidding about the power switch.
personally I don't think people who forked out 350-400USD for the W1 is really gonna be put off by an extra 20-30USD for the 3M riser. but hey, that's just me.

I think at this point, providing a reliable 3.0 cable to users is a better move than saying 'here's a cable. I can't guarantee at works at 4.0, but you might get lucky.'

...and there's a $40 cost up (and probably delay)...
this is why I suggested it could be an optional accessory where it would not affect the delivery and cost of the case itself. but the creator wants to wait for Gen4 certified riser so who knows how long that's going to take. no point beating a dead horse, just look forward to more updates. given how professionally this launch has been and the high quality goals that's been set, I would love to see more cases from Winter team in the future

Criticizing a decision that will affect literally every Winter One/Mesh-Licious owner in 2021 who will use the latest-gen hardware. Must be nitpicking!

I agree with what OT said about riser cables in one of his previous videos, idk why in the review he ignored the fact that Mesh-Licious will also ship with 3.0 riser cable.
OT is almost ASMR for me at this point, don't really put much weight on his reviews anymore.
 

jupiterking

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Oct 23, 2020
90
163
I feel like if people really want a “PCIE 4.0” riser they can just find their own. As Winter said, he doesn’t want to provide a lesser product. It’s not easy to source and distribute additional parts and options, then add any support requests for cables that don’t work. I’m surprised this has had to be discussed so much (but then I guess I was also surprised by how long we talked about screws).

Now where’s that update 😬😜
 
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ckrueger99

Trash Compacter
Apr 19, 2020
36
57
Given that we have no "front" I/O, I wonder if anyone here has experience with these devices, which plug into mobo 19/20-pin USB header and allow "front" I/O through an unused slot in the back panel bracket. They seem ridiculously cheap. Do they work?