Discussion To hell with nVidia's definition of SFF ready. What should be the actual SFF standard?

SaperPL

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Oct 17, 2017
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Well if you look at it sensibly it seems to me that standardising card length to motherboards would make sense. That way you can make efficient cases.

So "ITX" cards would be 170mm/2 slot
"micro/ATX" cards would be 244mm/4 slot
and "eATX" cards would be 330mm/7 slot
Why would ITX card be 2 slot and not 1 slot ? :>

The 5090 shows that you can dissipate a lot of heat in a 2 slot card if there's a lot of vent through area, and there's an awesome example of how it can be done cheaper, done by gigabyte:

b6OcA6trIO1l05H7.jpg


So in essence, if you squeeze everything upfront, you can have a huge pass-through area after the PCB. 5090 overcomplicates this thing a lot, but I get that they wanted to extract heat both sides.

Anyway 2-slot designs can do enough to tackle mainstream chips up to 250W of reference size and something between 10.5~12" / 267~305mm.
10.5"/267mm is IMO minimum length that makes sense for the card to have a stealth connector on the bottom side of the card that will go around 244mm of ATX/mATX to be hidden by directly going into the grommet pass-through to the back of the case where cable management is done.

Apart from this some standardised ITX sized and low profile ITX sized also make sense, but having mid-range chips is either impossible or loud, but for lower end ones, they are still valid and make much sense.
 
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SaperPL

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To revive this topic a bit - some stuff is happening:







Both Gigabyte and MSI coming out with such designs.

Few things to note that I think are interesting here:
  • I spammed most of the vendors with the idea of how such card should look like last year and mostly didn't get any response, but if that was something that encouraged vendors to go this route, aside from ASUS pushing for their proprietary solution, then it means there can be a way to influence the industry. But that's a big IF.

  • We'll have to see the availability of those cards and if nvidia will do something about it, meaning if they'll allow those to happen in reference size etc.

  • note how MSI have added some surface protecting the cable from touching the radiator, assuming that's the purpose - seems like it's doable to handle it some way.
 

FadedJoke

What's an ITX?
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1) Width must be dual-slot. Complete non-negotiable. Not 2.2, 2.5, 3, 4....2 slots. 40mm period.

2) Length is controversial. If SFF cases are allowed to go up to 19L, then they could support really long cards. However, I'd want it cut-off at the width of a motherboard PCB. i.e, there are cases that can fix M-ATX or even full ATX, but both of those have a width of 244mm.

3) Height is often disregarded except in special cases, but the closer to the official full height spec 111mm, the better.

So the absolute ideal? 111mm height, 40mm width, and length of 244mm or less.
Nah, go with the combined widths of an itx mobo and flex psu witha7be 1-2cm gap between for cable routing. So about 17-18cm in length then instead of an "enthusiast" branding call that size "core" and then itx length "core" or whatever. Examples would be: tetra s as "enthusiast", midori 5l not quite long enough for "core", and velka as "basic."
3 sizes is plenty and would place sff into 10l and smaller case category of its own.
Watwecooling is antithetical to true sff enthusiasts.
 
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SaperPL

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I mean we're all out here hoping that nVidia even keep making GPUs, which is not even a guarantee anymore :(
I'm actually hoping here for amd and intel to step up their game while competing when nvidia stops caring.

I grabbed 9060XT 16GB last year and it is fine. Amd is still doing some stupid things with how their control app is designed, but there is progress with keeping track of old drivers if the new one breaks something for you and I didn't had that much issues as like decade ago with radeons. Intel B580 also did surprise me with mostly working fine and it blew me away how quiet the limited edition card is.

Anyway, we'll be pushing the topic of the card form factor with some crazy decisions hoping the enthusiasts in the niche will get on board to make things happen.
 

Phuncz

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Nvidia threw consumers under the bus publicly quite quickly, but in response so did Intel and AMD but less outspoken maybe. 2026 will be a null year for new GPUs as I don't think any of the three GPU companies have any new products planned for 2026 that isn't for enterprise or workstation use.

I'm also happy with my AMD RX 6700 XT and was interested for a B770 to possibly replace it a while ago, which is not going to happen this year.
 

msystems

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Apr 28, 2017
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These days based on the current gpu offerings, from an efficiency perspective it doesn't make sense to try and use one unless you are targeting the high end which puts you at about 10+ liters, 1000w psu, and heavy. For me, thats too big and not portable, or of it is portable its going to be a toaster. I would do m-ATX at that point. I am only interested in something portable and under 5L while still being quiet and efficient.

After seeing the efficiency of the latest integrated systems (apple silicon, and AMD AI Max 395) I switched from my 3 liter Gigabyte LP 4060 build to a m4 laptop which is able to run anything I want either natively or through Crossover. Ill just trade it in for the latest silicon every year or 2.

I remain excited for the next proper AM5 APU release to make deskmini spicy again (with a good quantity of GPU CU which will probably be in 2027. the coming AI 400 isnt really a proper upgrade), as well as the framework ITX mainboard future updates with the Ryzen mobile processors.

I still find SFF and mini PCs incredibly useful for homelab type things and am refocusing on their remaining strengths - creating plug and play NAS kits for nuc/deskmini platform (power distro and load switch allowing use of multiple 3.5 disks with minipc) and 10 inch rack integration so people can run their own self hosted media server / security / home assistant. Self hosted private AI will also be huge and power efficient SFF platforms are the ideal way to go about it.
 
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SaperPL

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These days based on the current gpu offerings, from an efficiency perspective it doesn't make sense to try and use one unless you are targeting the high end which puts you at about 10+ liters, 1000w psu, and heavy. For me, thats too big and not portable, or of it is portable its going to be a toaster. I would do m-ATX at that point. I am only interested in something portable and under 5L while still being quiet and efficient.

After seeing the efficiency of the latest integrated systems (apple silicon, and AMD AI Max 395) I switched from my 3 liter Gigabyte LP 4060 build to a m4 laptop which is able to run anything I want either natively or through Crossover. Ill just trade it in for the latest silicon every year or 2.

I remain excited for the next proper AM5 APU release to make deskmini spicy again (with a good quantity of GPU CU which will probably be in 2027. the coming AI 400 isnt really a proper upgrade), as well as the framework ITX mainboard future updates with the Ryzen mobile processors.

I still find SFF and mini PCs incredibly useful for homelab type things and am refocusing on their remaining strengths - creating plug and play NAS kits for nuc/deskmini platform (power distro and load switch allowing use of multiple 3.5 disks with minipc) and 10 inch rack integration so people can run their own self hosted media server / security / home assistant. Self hosted private AI will also be huge and power efficient SFF platforms are the ideal way to go about it.
I have RTX 4070 and RX 9060 16GB in 5L, just slightly bigger than PS4, console case prototypes. They work fine. Also B580 Limited edition did barely fit, and worked it fine.

I would expect something like 5060TI 16GB or RX 9060 16GB made into triple-fan 270mm long reference-sized card would be the perfect for this case. And these cases should be even more portable than Sentry cases are.

As for laptop and APUs - you're buying whole thing each time, so this is a choice. And not only about the money, but also ease of upgrade. The now GPU you can just pop in and still use the old system without having to bother with whatever happens to your software licenses or drivers.

I don't expect APUs to actually get ahead of configurations of multiple components simply because we've been there over and over again - laptop vendors will not let the optimal APUs land in cheap SKUs. The current question would be whether it makes sense for you to grab AI Max 385 laptop over something with RTX 5050, but the APU-based laptop will be like two times more expensive. Yes, the APU laptop will be more efficient, but will you be still able to cash in on more expensive laptops each generation? The framework laptops could be interesting here though if they'd have something like AI Max 385.

Separate topic though is that the graphics fidelity of games isn't really pushing forward that much now and you can be fine for years with mid range card if you don't necessarily need to have 200FPS or 4K screen etc. And also growing out of playing all the newest games on release is a thing...

Apple / Arm though might be something that will be a completely different thing that will change the status quo seeing proton-based/like libraries for arm doing magic there for running games.
 

ignsvn

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I have RTX 4070 and RX 9060 16GB in 5L, just slightly bigger than PS4, console case prototypes.

Prototypes? Any pic? 🙂

Separate topic though is that the graphics fidelity of games isn't really pushing forward that much now and you can be fine for years with mid range card if you don't necessarily need to have 200FPS or 4K screen etc. And also growing out of playing all the newest games on release is a thing...

Agree on this. I think many modern games can be played with the low-ish setting while retaining reasonably good graphic to get playable FPS (to be fair my standard is low: 30 fps).

And on the other hand, there are also games which rely on good storytelling and unique perspective. These games have their own edge & don't always rely on beefy GPU.
 
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