Power Supply PSUs Thin and STX vs mATX

[Phryq]

So Thin ITX and STX both allow laptop power bricks.

Benefits
1 - Smaller case.
2 - Convenient.
2 - No wires (with only M.2 drives).

Downsides
1 - Less power.

I don't need tons of power, as I don't want a GPU. I've looked at e.g. 'pico power' which lets you use a laptop brick with a tiny device inside the case, however this would still mean more heat/space within the actual case. Will these Thin and STX standards also be creating heat inside the case? Or is most of the heat happening in the power brick?

 

[Thehack]

So Thin ITX and STX both allow laptop power bricks.

Benefits
1 - Smaller case.
2 - Convenient.
2 - No wires (with only M.2 drives).

Downsides
1 - Less power.

I don't need tons of power, as I don't want a GPU. I've looked at e.g. 'pico power' which lets you use a laptop brick with a tiny device inside the case, however this would still mean more heat/space within the actual case. Will these Thin and STX standards also be creating heat inside the case? Or is most of the heat happening in the power brick?

The heat happens in the brick for the most part.

The heat inside the case is negligible for so I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[cleveland]

The heat happens in the brick for the most part.

The heat inside the case is negligible for so I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm sorry to say that, but this is not entirely true. Any and every power conversion, of any kind, will create certain amounts of heat, based on the adapter's efficiency, wich, in turn, could become a real issue If it is not dissipated correctly.

If the OP is going to use 12v bricks, the DC-ATX adapter won't create so much heat, because the 12v rail generally use unmodified power right from the brick, but if he's gonna use 19v bricks, certainly there'll be a lot of heat inside an ITX case (which I suppose is the actual scenario here).

 

[Thehack]

I'm sorry to say that, but this is not entirely true. Any and every power conversion, of any kind, will create certain amounts of heat, based on the adapter's efficiency, wich, in turn, could become a real issue If it is not dissipated correctly.

If the OP is going to use 12v bricks, the DC-ATX adapter won't create so much heat, because the 12v rail generally use unmodified power right from the brick, but if he's gonna use 19v bricks, certainly there'll be a lot of heat inside an ITX case (which I suppose is the actual scenario here).

If he's building GPU-less, assuming the DC-DC is about 95% (HD-PLEX is rated is >94%), he's going to produce 65W x .05 = 3.25W. 3W of power. That's nothing. most of the time the PC will be at 10-20% (idle) to moderate loads (using regular programs, not render or crunching numbers), so it'll be around:

15W (idle) x .05 = .75W

or

40W * .05 = 2W

2W of normal consumption. That's negligible.

If the DC-DC is on the worse side of efficiency at 90%, it'll be 4W. Barely anything.

If he's using 12V Pico, it likely has the efficiency of 97-99%.

 

[cleveland]

If he's building GPU-less, assuming the DC-DC is about 95% (HD-PLEX is rated is >94%), he's going to produce 65W x .05 = 3.25W. 3W of power. That's nothing. most of the time the PC will be at 10-20% (idle) to moderate loads (using regular programs, not render or crunching numbers), so it'll be around:
.

I really like your math, but we're talking about real world here...

HD-Plex is rated as 94%+ efficiency at room temperature, with some kind of airflow to mantain those temps stable. Inside an Thin-ITX case (thats an important point to take note), those temps gonna be WAY higher and, depending on the PSU positioning/MoBo layout, there'll be no airflow.

Add to the overall equation the airflow needed to cool mobo's mosfets and chipset. During a gaming session, it'll be hot as hell inside a little case (3.3l~5l, we're talking about thin-ITX here) and throttling is almost certain, along with the shutdown (in specific cases).

Besides that, I must to admit that for casual use, excluding games and heavy load tasks, anything serves.

 

[Thehack]

I really like your math, but we're talking about real world here...

HD-Plex is rated as 94%+ efficiency at room temperature, with some kind of airflow to mantain those temps stable. Inside an Thin-ITX case (thats an important point to take note), those temps gonna be WAY higher and, depending on the PSU positioning/MoBo layout, there'll be no airflow.

Add to the overall equation the airflow needed to cool mobo's mosfets and chipset. During a gaming session, it'll be hot as hell inside a little case (3.3l~5l, we're talking about thin-ITX here) and throttling is almost certain, along with the shutdown (in specific cases).

Besides that, I must to admit that for casual use, excluding games and heavy load tasks, anything serves.

I really don't know what to say besides your expectations and calculations are way off. If you think efficiency changes that much between room temperature and case temp, and with an air cooled 65W CPU pushing air out, then you're mistaken. 2-4W is barely any heat. You don't even need airflow to cool 2-4W.

Nothing you say is backed by hard evidence. The DC-DC board makes negligible amount of heat.

 

[cleveland]

I really don't know what to say besides your expectations and calculations are way off.
2-4W is barely any heat. You don't even need airflow to cool 2-4W.

Nothing you say is backed by hard evidence. The DC-DC board makes negligible amount of heat.

You're really pushing the "2W" joke, but i can't see any real world evidence, just math-out-of-nowhere. My "expectations and calculations" are backed by experimentation and lots of testimonials of people that say clearly the HD-Plex DC-ATX gets really hot without air.

87ºc+ and shutdowns every time, after 10-15 min of stress test.

Also, where's your actual evidences?

 

[Thehack]

If your chassis hit 87C, which it shouldn't, that means your case is a hot box and your HDPLEX may be defective. None of the factual things add up. Your chassis temp should be lower than your CPU temp, usually 5-10 degrees higher than ambient.

What I basically mean is, your problem is probably not the HDPLEX. More or so the case or your cooling solution.

 

[cleveland]

If your chassis hit 87C, which it shouldn't, that means your case is a hot box and your HDPLEX may be defective. None of the factual things add up. Your chassis temp should be lower than your CPU temp, usually 5-10 degrees higher than ambient.

What I basically mean is, your problem is probably not the HDPLEX. More or so the case or your cooling solution.

Looks like somebody forgot we were talking about HD-Plex psu...

 

[Thehack]

Looks like somebody forgot we were talking about HD-Plex psu...

They're not dissimilar. Let me ask you, if your case is getting hot and causing shutdowns, should you:

1) Focus on the component that puts out max 4W of heat?
2) Focus on the component that puts out 65W of heat?
3) Focus on the enclosure that needs to clear out all that heat?

I assure you, that the HDPLEX produces an insubstantial amount of heat (or is defective to where it is not working correctly) compared to the rest of your components. You can call up Larry, and he'll tell you the same thing... His HDPLEX 160 puts out very little heat when working with a 65W load. Go ahead and ask for the specs of efficiency vs temperature.

You're focusing on the wrong thing.

 

[Phryq]

Oh shoot. I forgot to mention, I want to use a 91w CPU (7700k).

I'm guessing that changes things (and I'm thinking I'll need a 19v brick for a 7700k?)

Someone in another thread told me thin-ITX can support a 7700k, however the adapter will get hot.

ASRock's MicroSTX is built to support a K CPU, so that shouldn't be an issue.

But if I decide to go MiniSTX (needing a pico PSU) will that create more heat?

 

[cleveland]

They're not dissimilar. Let me ask you, if your case is getting hot and causing shutdowns, should you:

1) Focus on the component that puts out max 4W of heat?
2) Focus on the component that puts out 65W of heat?
3) Focus on the enclosure that needs to clear out all that heat?

I assure you, that the HDPLEX produces an insubstantial amount of heat (or is defective to where it is not working correctly) compared to the rest of your components. You can call up Larry, and he'll tell you the same thing... His HDPLEX 160 puts out very little heat when working with a 65W load. Go ahead and ask for the specs of efficiency vs temperature.

You're focusing on the wrong thing.

I proved my point. Good luck convincing yourself of your "i assure you...".

 

[Thehack]

I proved my point. Good luck convincing yourself of your "i assure you...".

That's quite fine. You can keep pointing figures at the HDPLEX saying it significantly contributes to the temperature of your case. You will only be chasing a false flag. I recommend you investigate how well your CPU cooler works, and how well your case evacuates the heat instead though...

Oh shoot. I forgot to mention, I want to use a 91w CPU (7700k).

I'm guessing that changes things (and I'm thinking I'll need a 19v brick for a 7700k?)

Someone in another thread told me thin-ITX can support a 7700k, however the adapter will get hot.

ASRock's MicroSTX is built to support a K CPU, so that shouldn't be an issue.

But if I decide to go MiniSTX (needing a pico PSU) will that create more heat?

1. The brick type you need depends on DC-DC board you are using. If you are using mini-box's Pico, you need 12V. If you are using HD-PLEX, you need 19V.

2. How the adapter handles the load depends on what its rated for. A good quality 19V adapter used for gaming laptops should handle a 90W load pretty well.

3. The issue is Asrock MicroSTX doesn't support overclocking.

4. MiniSTX has a direct in 19V plug. Heat produced depends completely on your CPU/Mobo combo. If you have a high end CPU, your mobo may not support the high consumption/clocks. Just make sure you match the capabilities of MOBO to CPU so you get the most effectiveness.

 

[jeshikat]

I'm guessing that changes things (and I'm thinking I'll need a 19v brick for a 7700k?)

Someone in another thread told me thin-ITX can support a 7700k, however the adapter will get hot.

ASRock's MicroSTX is built to support a K CPU, so that shouldn't be an issue.

But if I decide to go MiniSTX (needing a pico PSU) will that create more heat?

Some Thin-ITX boards have the option for 12V input, but all the Thin-ITX and Mini-STX boards I've seen are primarily designed to be powered from an external 19V adapter.

So yes the adapter will run a little hotter with the 7700K, but no more than if the brick were attached to a gaming laptop and those are common enough.

The brick type you need depends on DC-DC board you are using. If you are using mini-box's Pico, you need 12V. If you are using HD-PLEX, you need 19V.

@Phryq To clarify, Mini-Box makes 12V picoPSU which are the most popular, but they also make wide input models that take 12-32V. For the HDPLEX DC-ATX units, 19V is the most commonly used since that's what most bricks are, but they accept 16V-24V input.

 

[jØrd]

Oh shoot. I forgot to mention, I want to use a 91w CPU (7700k).

I'm guessing that changes things (and I'm thinking I'll need a 19v brick for a 7700k?)

Someone in another thread told me thin-ITX can support a 7700k, however the adapter will get hot.

ASRock's MicroSTX is built to support a K CPU, so that shouldn't be an issue.

But if I decide to go MiniSTX (needing a pico PSU) will that create more heat?

IIRC its the VRM's that will likely cook. A cursory google search seems to suggest this is the most common point of failure running a 95w CPU in a board spec'd for 65w, more so than the power brick.

 

[aquelito]

Maybe Thin Mini-ITX boards accepting 12V input - such as the Gigabyte H110-TN - are less likely to have VRM issue, since they do not have to convert 19V to 12V anymore ?

I say that but I may have damaged mine...

 

[Phryq]

That's quite fine. You can keep pointing figures at the HDPLEX saying it significantly contributes to the temperature of your case. You will only be chasing a false flag. I recommend you investigate how well your CPU cooler works, and how well your case evacuates the heat instead though...




1. The brick type you need depends on DC-DC board you are using. If you are using mini-box's Pico, you need 12V. If you are using HD-PLEX, you need 19V.

2. How the adapter handles the load depends on what its rated for. A good quality 19V adapter used for gaming laptops should handle a 90W load pretty well.

3. The issue is Asrock MicroSTX doesn't support overclocking.

I don't want to overclock, however I do want full speed of the CPU.


Ok, I'm not worried about the adaptor running hotter, only if something inside the case gets hotter, as I'd like to passively cool if possible, either entirely, or with some help from a 140mm slow-fan.

4. MiniSTX has a direct in 19V plug. Heat produced depends completely on your CPU/Mobo combo. If you have a high end CPU, your mobo may not support the high consumption/clocks. Just make sure you match the capabilities of MOBO to CPU so you get the most effectiveness.

We can assume the ASRock MicroSTX can support 7700k at regular clock, yes?

Thin ITX also has a direct-in plug yes?

IIRC its the VRM's that will likely cook. A cursory google search seems to suggest this is the most common point of failure running a 95w CPU in a board spec'd for 65w, more so than the power brick.

Ok, so a 95w CPU on a thin-ITX is a bad idea. It looks like the Micro-STX is still ideal. I just wish it accepted more ram.

 

[Phryq]

Maybe Thin Mini-ITX boards accepting 12V input - such as the Gigabyte H110-TN - are less likely to have VRM issue, since they do not have to convert 19V to 12V anymore ?

I say that but I may have damaged mine...

It looks like your problem was a BIOS update? Anyhow 12v won't be enough for a 7700k, right? I would need 19v. So either MicroSTX or MicroITX (and STX is smaller and takes a brick, so I'd choose that).

 

[Thehack]

I don't want to overclock, however I do want full speed of the CPU.


Ok, I'm not worried about the adaptor running hotter, only if something inside the case gets hotter, as I'd like to passively cool if possible, either entirely, or with some help from a 140mm slow-fan.



We can assume the ASRock MicroSTX can support 7700k at regular clock, yes?

Thin ITX also has a direct-in plug yes?



Ok, so a 95w CPU on a thin-ITX is a bad idea. It looks like the Micro-STX is still ideal. I just wish it accepted more ram.

Your power solution does not affect heat inside your case since your AC adapter is on the outside. The heat inside your case depends on your components and how good your cooling is, including the case design.

12V or 19V does not affect what CPU you can run. What affects is what motherboard you have and what power supply you are using.

Micro STX I believe is limited to 65W. Doesn't mean you can't put in a 7700k, it just means your cpu is power limited.

 

[aquelito]

Thin Mini-ITX boards are designed to be passively cooled, provided you are staying within the TDP limits and have a well ventilated case.

Hereafter the the Akasa Euler passive case review by Silentpcreview : fully stressed, a 35W CPU system heats quite a bit.
Just look at the chipset and VRM temps.

Bottom line : use that kind of chassis for a 7700K