SFF Network Ncore V1 prototype shows efficiently minimalistic mount

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King of Cable Management
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Sep 26, 2015
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I respect fluid dynamics as much as the next guy, but I'm speaking in context. I have serious doubts that moving from 1/4" tubing to 1/2" tubing given the context of computer liquid cooling causes a measurable temperature drop.

I'm happy to test this; I have everything I need to do so--we should work together in coming up with a checklist of things to test for. I think it would make a great video. You in brother?
This was tested a long time ago:

Cathar said:
The impact of tubing sizes
I've been working on a wholistic guide to designing a water-cooling system of late. Using a mix of real-world test data, and calculating pressure drops, I've been able to put together an analysis of the impact of tubing sizes on CPU temperatures.

The radiator and waterblocks are:

Thermochill PA120.2 with 2 x Yate-Loon fans at 12v
Swiftech Apogee GTX
Conroe C2D CPU, overclocked and under load, emitting 100W of heat
2 meters of tubing length

Loop order is pump->radiator->waterblock->pump

Using 1/2" ID tubing and 1/2" OD barbs, I determined the pressure-drop curve for the system. Using Swiftech's published test data for the Apogee GTX, and a flow-performance curve for the PA120.2, we're able to determine the pumping hydraulic power required to push various flow-rates. Using established typical ratios of hydraulic power to actual power draw and heat dump of known real-world pumps, we're able to throw into the mix the amount of pump heat dump required to push any flow rate. We first establish this independently of an actual pump (i.e. determine the theoretical best pump), and then select an actual real-world pump that best suits the theoretical target, and then using the PQ curve of that pump, determine the final flow rate of the system, and hence the correspondent final CPU temperature.

Now in a wholistic model, we're modelling not just the impact of the water-flow rate on the CPU temperature, but the impact of the total heat dump of the cooling system (CPU, pump, radiator fans) has on the room environment, which in turn raises the temperature of the air in the room, and so in turn raises the water temperature because the air-in temperature into the radiator will have warmed up. The effect is very small, but I still model it.

Global temp = 22C
Room C/W = 0.005
Fan Heat Dump = 2.0W

The proposed tubing sizes and fittings we'll be investigating are:

6.35 (1/4") ID tubing with quick-fit fittings
8mm (5/16") ID tubing over 6mmID|8mmOD barbs
8mm (5/16") ID tubing with quick-fit fittings
9.6mm (3/8") ID tubing over 7.5mmID|3/8"OD barbs
9.6mm (3/8") ID tubing with quick-fit fittings
11.1mm (7/16") ID tubing stretched over 10.5mmID|1/2"OD barbs
12.7mm (1/2") ID tubing over 10.5mmID|1/2"OD barbs

Quick-fit fittings are those similar to those found on the Swiftech MCW50 (http://www.swiftech.com/products/mcw50.asp)

Running the above range of tubing/fitting sizes through the optimal pump power estimator software I wrote, it predicts that the best pump to use is one that's consuming around 10-13W, with optimal pumping efficiency in the ranges of 3-6LPM. I won't go into the intricacies of the pump power estimator. It's not an exact science, suffice to say that it looks at the wholistic scenario given a waterblock, heatload, room C/W, radiator, system restriction, and so on, and puts out a suggestion for where the optimal range of pumping power lies for that setup. This allows us to then pick a real pump that closely matches the suggested pumping characteristics.

Using the Laing data here: http://www.laing.de/file/66 we see that an unmodified DDC1+ (more commonly referred to in forums as the DDC2) is a very good pump fit for our scenario. Another excellent alternative would be the DDC1 with a modded top.

Okay, so our optimised system consists of:
Laing DDC1+ (unmodified)
Thermochill PA120.2 with 2 x Yate-Loon fans at 12v
Conroe C2D CPU, overclocked and under load, emitting 100W of heat
2 meters of tubing length

For the various tubing/fitting sizes, the PQ curves for a full system for each tubing type looks like this:



I overlaid the curves onto the PQ graph for the Laing DDC1+

The flow performance curves for the radiator and waterblock are illustrated on the following graphs:


...and...


The total CPU heat load is 100W. The total system heat load is 114W . We assume a fixed 14W heat dump from pump which was derived from other testing. This does in fact vary a little as we can see by the Laing graph. As flow rates decrease, so does power draw, and therefore the heat-dump as well. For simplicity we'll assume a fixed 14W heat dump for now.

The intersections all are:

6.35mm quick fit = 4.45LPM flow, 0.0795 block c/w, 0.0374 rad c/w
8mm barbed = 4.75LPM, 0.0783 block c/w, 0.0373 rad c/w
8mm quick fit = 5.6LPM, 0.0770 block c/w, 0.0369 rad c/w
9.6mm barbed = 5.7LPM, 0.0768 block c/w, 0.0369 rad c/w
9.6mm quick fit = 6.2LPM, 0.0762 block c/w, 0.0367 rad c/w
11.1mm barbed = 6.3LPM, 0.0761 block c/w, 0.0367 rad c/w
12.7mm barbed = 6.35LPM, 0.0760 block c/w, 0.0366 rad c/w

Final CPU temperature is ambient (22C) + system load (114W) * radiator C/W + CPU Load (100W) * block C/W

The final CPU temperatures work out to be:

6.35mm quick fit = 34.21C
8mm barbed = 34.08C
8mm quick fit = 33.91C
9.6mm barbed = 33.89C
9.6mm quick fit = 33.80C
11.1mm barbed = 33.79C
12.7mm barbed = 33.77C

So there we have it. The differences between varying tubing sizes.

Okay, the more astute of you will point out that the block C/W is really the case-to-block C/W, and that the actual CPU-die-to-block C/W is a lot higher. Even if we triple block the C/W (which would be an absolute upper limit based upon older research), we get:

6.35mm quick fit = 50.11C
8mm barbed = 49.74C
8mm quick fit = 49.31
9.6mm barbed = 49.25C
9.6mm quick fit = 49.04C
11.1mm barbed = 49.01C
12.7mm barbed = 49.00C

I'll leave it to everyone's own personal value based judgement to determine the relative importance of the differences seen....

It's certainly not the 5C figure that people bandy about. I never expected that it ever would be myself. In my own testing with arbitrarily choking the flow-rate in a test-system, I've always been amazed at the low flow resilience of many setups. Below 2LPM is where things start getting pear shaped quickly for most systems. My recommendation is that even if you're a low-flow fanatic, always ensure that your flow-rates are above 2LPM at the very least, and preferably above 3LPM if at all possible. Still, even when given 1/4" tubing installed with quick-fits and a decent pump like a DDC2, we can see that flow-rates in excess of 4LPM aren't a problem.
So, you can see there are small differences at ~1 degC between 6mm ID and 13mm ID, but not too much.
 

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King of Cable Management
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Sep 26, 2015
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Sure, I think we have similar views on this. Tube sizing is just one aspect in the system; there are plenty of other things that can have a measurably small impact, individually, but summed together could have a somewhat significant impact. When considering SFF systems, if fewer / smaller radiators could be used, that can significantly impact the overall size of the system.
 

Curiosity

Case addict
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Apr 30, 2016
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Almost cool enough to make me want to watercool!
If I had a bigger case I'd be sorely tempted.
 

aquelito

King of Cable Management
Piccolo PC
Feb 16, 2016
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I respect fluid dynamics as much as the next guy, but I'm speaking in context. I have serious doubts that moving from 1/4" tubing to 1/2" tubing given the context of computer liquid cooling causes a measurable temperature drop.

I'm happy to test this; I have everything I need to do so--we should work together in coming up with a checklist of things to test for. I think it would make a great video. You in brother?
I couldn't agree more.

This guy confirmed your intuition back in 2007 with the very same test you are suggesting.
He compared 5 tube sizes and did not notice any substantial temperature differences, all within 0,5 °. :

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?147767-The-impact-of-tubing-sizes

I am also cooling two 1070 and a 6700K with 1/4 ID tubing and a DDC pump without any issue.
Koolance for instance recommends 1/4 tubing up to 500W heat dissipation, which leaves quite some margin with current components.

EDIT : did not see that the link has already been provided by @||| above.
 
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NUDEcnc

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Mar 26, 2018
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Hi NUDEcnc here
I would like to thank the forum for the warm welcoming of the design and novelty idea behind this project.

@Mortis Angelus The cool factor is that it replaces the IHS on Intel CPUs - so instead of de-lidding then re-lidding your CPU, this waterblock makes direct die contact on a de-lidded processor.
The idea is to eliminate the distance between heat source which is die (not HIS) and water.
And this distance with Ncore is over 20 times smaller den standard with HIS setup.
 

Phuncz

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Hi @NUDEcnc welcome to our enthusiastic and passionate forum on small and efficient computer gear :)
Your block struck me as the kind of efficient thinking we love and sometimes can share among our community, I'm sure you have more than a few fans right in this forum :)

Be sure to give us an update here when the Kickstarter campaign launches !
 

Arboreal

Master of Cramming
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Oct 11, 2015
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Hi @NUDEcnc, just taken a look at your Kickstarter page - good luck with the fundraising.
Great product, I'm sorry I have no use for one as I don't WC.
I see you're local to me too, just to your West, the other side of the New Forest.
 
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Phuncz

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Oh wow very interesting:


Is it metal ? This image makes it look like 3D printed plastic material.


Some stuff in the campaign is a little rough on the edges (some typos) but it looks promising. The best of luck with your campaign !
 

Phuncz

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The shine and the edges are abscent for the typical shine of anodized materials. Although on the animated image (though .gif so limited in color space) but still it reminds me much more of my LZ7's purple 3D printed corners (matte look) than the shine (completely abscent) of anodized aluminium.

I did not find any reference to material the bracket is going to be made in, so it's more to answer a question some might have in the future.
 

NUDEcnc

Efficiency Noob
Mar 26, 2018
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Oh wow very interesting:


Is it metal? This image makes it look like 3D printed plastic material.


Some stuff in the campaign is a little rough on the edges (some typos) but it looks promising. The best of luck with your campaign!
Delidder is made from 6082 aluminium, fully machined from a plate and anodized

Typos – whole campaign was written by me and my wife. As English is not our native language please be understanding. I promise to correct it ASAP.

If anybody from the forum would offer help in that matter We would be very grateful.


The shine and the edges are abscent for the typical shine of anodized materials. Although on the animated image (though .gif so limited in color space) but still it reminds me much more of my LZ7's purple 3D printed corners (matte look) than the shine (completely abscent) of anodized aluminium.


I did not find any reference to the material the bracket is going to be made in, so it's more to answer a question some might have in the future.

My goal was to achieve non- reflective finish. Personally, I believe that typical vivid colours of aluminium wouldn’t correlate with the rest of modern PC hardware.
 

Phuncz

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Thanks for clearing that up ! I would recommend mentioning it on the Kickstarter as it is a positive property of the delidder/bracket.
 
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Arboreal

Master of Cramming
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Delidder is made from 6082 aluminium, fully machined from a plate and anodized

Typos – whole campaign was written by me and my wife. As English is not our native language please be understanding. I promise to correct it ASAP.

If anybody from the forum would offer help in that matter We would be very grateful.

My goal was to achieve non- reflective finish. Personally, I believe that typical vivid colours of aluminium wouldn’t correlate with the rest of modern PC hardware.
Hi @NUDEcnc, I'd be happy to proof read any wording for you. I have been involved in technical stuff over the years, and making documentation read nicely in a particular language is a worthwhile job. I used to work on newsletters and press releases in my old job.
 

dondan

King of Cable Management
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Feb 23, 2015
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This idea is very very good and has a big potential to be successful. The retention kit that is a delliding tool in the same time is genius. Here is some input:

1.) I think a more premium look like a combination of black and nickel plate would be better.
2.) The quality of the Kickstarter campaign and the product itself doesn't match. It would be better to create a much shorter video that focus only on the waterblock and a better designed kickstarter page. Currently it looks like a 90th website. Sorry :(
3.) Send samples to youtuber and review websites that focus on watercooling like hardwareluxx in Germany or Bit-Tech in UK.
4.) Maybe instead of crafting this product on your own CNC contact some manufacturers that can make large batches in a very short time.

If you advertise the product correct and give the marketing/presenting stuff a more premium feeling than you can sell a lot of it.

So please don't rush and spend more time on it :)
 
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NUDEcnc

Efficiency Noob
Mar 26, 2018
5
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This idea is very very good and has a big potential to be successful. The retention kit that is a delliding tool in the same time is genius. Here is some input:

1.) I think a more premium look like a combination of black and nickel plate would be better.
2.) The quality of the Kickstarter campaign and the product itself doesn't match. It would be better to create a much shorter video that focus only on the waterblock and a better designed kickstarter page. Currently it looks like a 90th website. Sorry :(
3.) Send samples to youtuber and review websites that focus on watercooling like hardwareluxx in Germany or Bit-Tech in UK.
4.) Maybe instead of crafting this product on your own CNC contact some manufacturers that can make large batches in a very short time.

If you advertise the product correct and give the marketing/presenting stuff a more premium feeling than you can sell a lot of it.

So please don't rush and spend more time on it :)

1. The coating can be a risk factor in this project and gives no improvement in performance. I am sure you know many examples of peeling nickel plating :)
2. I would like to politely disagree with you in that matter, Kickstarter page was designed by my wife and it is the most beautiful page I ever saw in my life :)
3. I am definitely planning to send another, larger batch of the improved Ncores for further testing, before sending final product to customers. I will try to send one to both of them too.
4. Based on my many year aerospace and CNC experience, the only way that I can fully guarantee a quality of the product is to make it by myself. So sending to subcontractors is not an option.

Love the retention / delidder update. Good luck with the Kickstarter! I hope to be receiving the V1D later this year :)
Thank you