CPU Low TDP CPUs and Gaming?

[Jace]

Hey all! I'm new here and this is my first post ever. I'm also still quite inexperienced in PC stuff so bear with me.

I would like to build as small as possible Mini ITX gaming PC to go with my living room TV. 1080p, 60fps, high setting and all that good stuff. I've decided to choose GTX 1050ti LP as my GPU. Now I'm thinking about PSU and CPU. I would like to power my build with HDPlex 160W AC-DC w/PFC because that way I don't have to drag external brick with be when I need to take this PC off from the TV to go along or to be used as a media PC in another room.
But I'm concerned that this PSU solution doesn't offer enough power for a regular TDP CPU or an unlocked one. Intel has a lot of low TDP CPUs the ''T'' ones and if those are any good at gaming then I'm totally going to go with one of those. I have a 1150 socket mainboard so i5 4690T or higher or even some Kaby Lake CPU (i7 7700T?) but then I'd have to change the mainboard but I'm okay with that too.

So is it worth getting a T ''rated'' CPU for gaming or could I use a regular TDP or unlocked one in my build with that PSUs?

 

[zovc]

Hey!

I am not certain about the HDPlex 160W, but I believe most of the smaller PSUs available--that is, ones smaller than SFX power supplies--need an external power brick. I'd double check on that. (And I totally could be mistaken.)

The GTX 1050 Ti is definitely an underrated video card. Make sure you check benchmarks on it for games you'd like to play at 1080p/60fps because I think modern titles might put it through its paces. I'm currently running on a 750 Ti (which is a lot older) and am consistently impressed by it, but it can't max out many new games in 1920x1080. The 1060 is targeted at 1080p gaming at 60fps, and that might end up being what you need to aim at--depending on the games you want to play, older ones could be fine on the 1050/Ti. Finally, it's very possible that you might as well get a regular-size video card rather than a low-profile one. Many (very) small cases have room for full-width video cards.

I think a T-series CPU should be plenty powerful for most gaming loads. It's another thing you should try to look for benchmarks on, but in general gaming is not particularly CPU intensive. (Some games are though!) Depending on how much you want to get your hands dirty, you could always try going with a K-series chip and undervolting it. The way this works is, you give the chip less power than it would normally take which causes it to generate less heat. It can lead to instability and to see any significant decrease in heat (or power draw) you might end up having to UNDERclock the CPU. The main advantage of taking this route over a T-series chip is that you could try to find the 'right' balance between performance and thermals. For example, my i7-4790K is currently drawing no more than 70W under load, I've got it turned down to 3.6GHz instead of the stock 4.0GHz and am giving it less voltage than normal. (Currently, it's on 1.070v and I believe the default is 1.200v.)

The other note about CPUs I wanted to give you is that you might not need an i7 chip. The "iX" branding really throws less computer savvy people for a loop--there is a slight speed difference between the i3/i5/i7 lines, but the significant difference is the numbers of cores/threads. I can't say for sure whether or not you need the extra 4 threads, but I am confident that the average end user does not and should choose an i5 or even an i3. You'll see i7's perform significantly better in a lot of benchmarks because they utilize multiple cores (and threads), but lots of real-world typical computer usage won't use more than 2 cores.

 

[Jace]

This is the PSU. It's like an external brick but smaller and meant to be used inside a case. It needs a PicoPSU style board with it to actually distribute the current.

Most of the games I'm looking forward to run on this system are RPGs and open world at that. Many of them are console ports so I'm not too concerned about GTX 1050ti not able to handle them. As long as games look better than their console counterparts I'm fine. And 1050ti is rated 75W TDP so it doesn't need that much power and because it gets all the power it needs from that PCI-e slot it helps to minimize the need for cables and with that I can build a smaller case. Yeah I forgot to mention that I plan to build my own case. Nothing fancy, just sturdy, small and pretty basic all around. And I'm using M.2 for all the storage needs.

The reason I even mentioned a CPU like i7 is because open world games are more CPU intensive to my knowledge. And with a weaker CPU I could imagine those fps going down some amount. Other thing is emulators. Those are CPU intensive too. Like Dolphin, Citra and Cemu. I thought about i3 or even Pentium at some point but I'm pretty sure I need an i5 and i7 would be playing really safe and somewhat more ''future proof''.

I currently have i5 4690K but have never overclocked it and I don't really see a need to when playing from TV. I could underclock it but I don't have any knowledge how to even do so and what I have read is that it could be unstable afterward like you said zovc. I would feel safer just going with stock speeds and with T rated CPUs if they meet my needs.


(About my current parts... A friend of mine basically chose all of my PC parts and now I have too powerful parts for my needs. I have that i5 4690K, mainboard meant for overclocking [ROG Maximus VII Impact] and a Asus GTX 970 DC Mini )

 

[Kmpkt]

Most games are vastly more GPU limited than CPU limited. I've run both a 6700T and 4690T over the past couple years and have never noticed any kind of significant decrease in performance when compared to my 4790K system with similar GPU power. I think it comes down to looking at what you're planning on playing and building around that. If the game is seriously CPU bound and wouldn't play well on say a 3770K (what I consider at stock to be a rough equivalent to the 6700T), then you're probably going to notice something of a difference.

 

[zovc]

Regarding CPUs and emulation, specifically, the (significantly) lower clock speed on my E5-2670s did start to limit my ability to emulate in one of the more difficult PS2 games when significantly oversampling them. But, I suspect any modern T-series chip you get will be fast enough that you shouldn't see problems with anything you want to do. I was trying to play a Shin Megami Tensei game in PCSX2 and that series in particular consistently gives the emulator a hard time--on top of that I was trying to play it at several times' the game's intended resolution and at a higher framerate than a PS2 normally runs the game... there were a lot of things going against everything running smoothly and still, for the most part it worked fine. My CPUs were just a little too slow for everything I was throwing at it and most modern desktop processors are a lot faster (single-core) than the CPUs I was using.

It does sound like you're going to be choosing between an i5 T-series chip and an i7 T-series chip. Any modern intel chip should be fast enough to get the job done for you, but I would aim for 4 physical cores instead of the 2 i3's will offer. I believe i3's handle emulation just fine but they might stumble under multitasking (if, like, you leave your browsers open and Steam is downloading games, maybe?) which is personally something I don't like having to worry. On the other hand: Most console ports and emulators will not utilize more than two logical threads. This has to do partially with how old most emulators are (Dolphin is one that can use more than two threads, I believe), and how most console games are programmed.

I reckon undervolting is super easy to get into and it sounds like you have hardware you can practice on! I couldn't find a good guide to help me along, but I basically went through this Linus Tech Tips video for my 4790K and in a few cases I tried doing the opposite of what they were saying. The thing is, you can make your system unstable--yes. "Unstable" sounds scary, but basically what happens is you make a change, get into windows, and it's (normally) immediately obvious you've gone too far. (WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE?!) Most obvious, you get a blue screen or Windows fails to boot. No damage has been done--though it is good to fool with this before putting any important data on a computer--stuff just isn't working. So you bump your voltage back up a little and you're good to go. You keep turning stuff down until you're unstable, bump it up just a bit to get into windows, then start running stress tests to see if the system is unstable under an unusually high load. If your system is stable running said unusually high load, it's obviously going to work fine under normal usage. With overclocking, it's possible you burn your hardware up but even that is honestly difficult to accomplish if you're paying attention and shut things down when something goes wrong. Underclocking is--as far as I understand--pretty hard to do anything drastically wrong with.

I'm not trying to be an advocate for undervolting--as it does end up being a little more expensive and you might not get what you're looking for out of it--I just want to make sure you know it's an option and I don't think you should be intimidated by it, especially if you already have hardware you could try practicing on if it's interesting to you.

 

[Jace]

First off I have to say that I'm really thankful to you guys for putting your time and effort into answering me so quickly and in detail. This information has really helped me massively. Especially since the PC gamers that I know tend to think that choosing anything other than heavily overclocked K-series chip is like blasphemy lol.

I'm sure now that I'm going to get a T-series CPU for my build but I will first try underclocking my i5 4690K just to test that approach too.

Again thank you so much!

 

[Parge]

Hey mate!

Underclocking can be a bit of trial and error before you find something stable. Just be aware of that.

You want to also look for 'R' and 'S' CPUs too.

I was in the exact same situation as you - I had both a i5 4690k and an i7 4770S. In the end I went for the 4770S due to the lower TDP (65W vs 84W), the fact that I probably wouldn't be overclocking anyway (the main point of the K series) and the extra (hyperthreaded) cores (4 vs 8) which are slowly becoming more useful. As everyone has said, games are mostly GPU limited and this will be especially true for you with a 1050ti.

Anyway, let us know how you get on.

 

[Jace]

Underclocking will be just an experiment till I get the new parts, not the final solution.

I have looked into and considered the R and S -series and have not found any differences to the T-series other than a bit higher clockspeeds at the cost of consuming more power and thus having a higher TDP. Normally those higher Ghz' would be a good thing but as I'm trying to build so small and so low wattage build I think it's not worth picking up a CPU that draws more power and generates more heat IF I don't have to. But if those extra Ghz do make a significant enough difference I would reconsider my CPU of choice.

ATM what I plan on getting:

CPU: 7th gen i5 or i7 (T)

GPU: Gigabyte or Galax GTX 1050 Ti OC Lp

RAM: 8 Gb DDR4

MOBO: Still not decided. I would like to get a 200-series mini ITX board with two M.2 slots but the only one as far as I know is Asus ROG Strix Z270I. And that is just too much for my needs. On the other hand if I buy now a 100-series board and then a 200-series one when they release another mini ITX with two M.2 slots I would be better financially by just buying now that Asus one...

SSD: Samsung 512Gb 950 PRO M.2 (Only part of this list I have) + second M.2 when I have the mainboard for it.

PSU: HDPLEX 160W AC-DC w/PFC + HDPLEX 160W DC-ATX Combo

I haven't bought any of the parts yet so I'm still open for suggestions.

 

[zovc]

It sounds like you're really getting a handle on what you're looking for. I'm excited and confident that you'll end up with a system that suits your needs.

Have you started to zero in on what case you're going to get? From what I can tell there aren't many cases out there that'll fit a low-profile 1050 (/Ti) because it's a dual-slot card. If you're going to be fitting the card into a case with room for a full-width card, I'd recommend shopping among all the available 1050 (/Ti)'s, as the cooling (and noise) will probably be better on a larger PCB with larger fans.

The GALAX 1050 LP does look nicer than the MSI one (in my opinion), but I don't know if that really counts for anything. It looks like it has heavier-duty heat spreading.

 

[Jace]

Thanks zovc!

I'm going to make the case myself. I have a lot of measurements, sketches and all other sort of plans about the case but I have come to the conclusion that for the next step I need all the parts so I can get a better idea how everything works together in real life.

Aluminium, aluminium mesh/grill and some sort of polycarbonate/plastic sheet are the materials of my choice for this project. Plan is to make almost like an open air configuration using that aluminium mesh/grill on almost every possible place where I can without sacrificing sturdiness and protection of components.

PS. Yes I ruled out that MSI one because it is one centimeter too long. Kind of bizarre imo to make a Low profile GPU but then stretch the measurements in other directions... Gigabyte seems okay but Galax one has those two fans and a hefty heatsink so I think it will stay cooler maybe? It just looks sturdier and cooler, and cooler

 

[alexep7]

I'm on the same boat as you, Jace. I'm also building a new tiny all-purpose PC with a T-chip, the same exact GPU as you and I'm also going to make the case myself. The motherboard I'll use is an ASRock H270M-ITX/ac though, which only has one m.2 slot, but I don't have any needs for extra storage.

Regarding what zovc said about underclocking a K-chip, I actually thought about that possibility too but in the end I figured it just wasn't worth it. Even if you manage to successfully underclock it to reach the desired 35W TDP, you probably won't have the same performance of its T-series equivalent - I mean, there is probably a reason Intel released them, right? Maybe to get to 35W you'd need to sacrifice clock speed and wouldn't be able to reach the clock speed of the T-series chip. I think. I may be wrong, but this was my reasoning.

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

I think one could underclock to 35W but with no guarantee that it'll work. T-series has the benefit to be plug and play .

 

[Jace]

@alexep7
Cool to hear that you're going for a similar build as I! If you have a thread about your progress with the build I would be interested in following that
I kind of think similarly with you about underclocking... Underclocking by yourself might not end up in as good results as what you get with a T-chip right out of the box (so a T-chip is optimized) but with enough experience and a good chip maybe you can get comparable results. I know literally nothing about underclocking in practice but in theory I think that you could underclock a K-chip to 35W and get comparable performance to a T-chip. To my knowledge at least.
I have looked trough Intel's specs sheets about chips and it seems that the only difference is TDP and Ghz. And those go almost hand in hand. So i7 7700K, 7700T and 7700 are the exact same chip but as we know not every chip is equal. I read somewhere a few days ago that the deciding factor which chip goes to T-pile and which goes to K-pile and so on is based on how the chip performs in testing. If the chip can handle higher Ghz stable it goes to K-pile, not so well R/S pile and so on. When they have all these different piles of chips they optimize them differently according to their now given classification.
It's not exactly apples to apples and I think that there is probably more to it than I know but in theory I think that you can successfully underclock a K-chip and get same performance as a T-chip. Who knows even better? All about optimization and luck with the chip...

...But I'm still going with a T-chip BUT I'm not selling my i5 4690K yet as I need to test my claims out
It's starting to look like I might end up with two different builds for a moment Might be beneficial to have individual information about chips over/underclockability when selling it.

 

[zovc]

Yeah, I can't guarantee that a K would undervolt to 35W--I haven't tried myself and I haven't heard of anyone going that far down. It's definitely outside of the marketed use case. For that matter, actually, I don't know if it's possible to undervolt non-K chips.

Anyways, I suspect that you will get similar performance undervolting towards 35W because the chips are 'the same' so far as I know. You're still paying a premium and dealing with the headache of personally tuning things yourself and I'd assume not wanting to bother with those are the reason you would go with a T-series (or R- or S-) chip. The plug-and-play factor.

That said, the K-series chip is designed for overclocking and marketed to 'enthusiasts', and it's available if you think you might be able to work with a chip running at a TDP of ~45W instead of exactly 35W. If it was worth the trouble (or interesting to you) to try getting 'the very most' out of the chip and cooling and enclosure, that's why you'd choose a K.

If you just want to assemble the machine and have everything work no questions asked (with super low thermals), you choose the T.

I don't think they're right for you, but if you're interested in very low TDP chips, there are actually boards with integrated 'mobile' processors that have, like, 5W-25W TDPs. They're definitely slower than typical desktop chips, but they use totally passive (fan-less) cooling. I'm not sure how they perform in emulators, but I know they are available on M-ITX boards but I'm not sure if any of them have the PCI-E bandwidth for a modern video card (none seem to have a PCI-E 3.0 x16 slot). I'm looking at one of those for my NAS right now.

 

[ricochet]

I'm going to make the case myself. I have a lot of measurements, sketches and all other sort of plans about the case but I have come to the conclusion that for the next step I need all the parts so I can get a better idea how everything works together in real life.

Aluminium, aluminium mesh/grill and some sort of polycarbonate/plastic sheet are the materials of my choice for this project. Plan is to make almost like an open air configuration using that aluminium mesh/grill on almost every possible place where I can without sacrificing sturdiness and protection of components.

Any examples that you could show us of the case materials would be interesting to see.

 

[QinX]

Yeah, I can't guarantee that a K would undervolt to 35W--I haven't tried myself and I haven't heard of anyone going that far down. It's definitely outside of the marketed use case. For that matter, actually, I don't know if it's possible to undervolt non-K chips.

It's really easy using Throttlestop.
I've got a 4790K and I've downclocked it to a 4790T, a 45W 2.7GHz CPU.

 

[EdZ]

Undervolting is as much or more of a lottery as overclocking: not all chips can operate reliably at the same minimum voltage. At some point the voltage will drop low enough that the lowest efficiency transistor on the die (and there are billions of them with transistor-to-transistor variance) no longer has enough voltage to switch when needed. Any given chip (and 'k' chips will be more highly binned than a non-k) may not be able to operate at the same voltage as a T chip has been validated at, for the same clock speed.

 

[QinX]

Undervolting is as much or more of a lottery as overclocking: not all chips can operate reliably at the same minimum voltage. At some point the voltage will drop low enough that the lowest efficiency transistor on the die (and there are billions of them with transistor-to-transistor variance) no longer has enough voltage to switch when needed. Any given chip (and 'k' chips will be more highly binned than a non-k) may not be able to operate at the same voltage as a T chip has been validated at, for the same clock speed.

True that it is a lottery. However as you can see I used Throttlestop for the underclocking and the chip runs at a pre-programmed voltage for a given multiplier and that voltage should be fairly low, mostly since a K CPU needs to be able to run at a lot of different frequencies and voltage when it is not fully loaded. So the chance that you get a K CPU that has a 84W TDP at 4GHz and has a 60W TDP at 2.7GHz is much lower. Intel can't sell you a K CPU that has rubbish performance/W outside of its upper frequency range or isn't stable at lower clocks.

Basically, underclocking is easy. lower the multiplier and the VID and TDP will go down with it.
Undervolting is tricky. You're trying to squeeze better performance/W out of a chip by giving it just enough voltage to keep running at stock speed.

 

[GuilleAcoustic]

T-series CPU also have Intel vPRO and Intel Trusted Platform that K-series doesn't offer. This is more business oriented though.

 

[janodin]

It's really easy using Throttlestop.
I've got a 4790K and I've downclocked it to a 4790T, a 45W 2.7GHz CPU.

This is exactly what I'm going to be looking to do with a gaming laptop with an LGA CPU. Use a de-lidded 7700K downclocked to 7700T levels to reduce fan noise. I doubt I would even notice 99% of the time when gaming, at least it'll stay quieter. And if i'm by myself where I won't annoy anyone with louder fans I can switch profiles and let it breathe.

I think honestly I'd probably end up leaving it that way and moving the clocks on the 1080 instead to manage fan noise depending on my current environment. Lets be real, a 7700K at 7700T and a 1080 at 1060-1070 levels will be more than enough most gaming situations, and be extremely quiet when the cooling solution was designed to handle much more. Added benefit I can switch back to "stock" in 30 seconds.

Hey mate!

Underclocking can be a bit of trial and error before you find something stable. Just be aware of that.

There is definitely NOTHING unstable about UNDERCLOCKING. All you're doing is turning down the multipliers, there is nothing unstable about it. To the contrary, it can help stability if you're running on the edge of your thermals or the CPU is in an extremely hot environment. UNDERVOLTING on the other hand, that can cause instability easily.