Concept J-HACK ROGUE - Big Air Mini Tower

Thehack

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Hello guys,

I have an idea for mini tower with compatibility for:

  • Simple mini tower design (like H200 or Define Nano S but shorter)
  • Noctua NH-U12 (with the NF-A12x25 fans)
  • Short ITX GPU
  • 3x 2.5"
  • SFX PSU support
  • Stealthy minimalist design
  • All metal, powder coated
  • Made/assembled in USA
  • 8-9L, price point around $200.

I'd like to gather some feedback/thoughts.
  • Would you like to increase size for intake fans?
  • Would you like more water cooling support?
  • What are some features you'd like to see it support?
  • What about an inverted motherboard tower? The GPU would end up on top, where it would get fresh air, but the trade off is you have more visible ventilation.
  • Are you interested in buying such a case?
 
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Thehack

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Is this what you are kinda thinking?

Yes. More optimized for front to rear airflow.

Yes!

How much room would you need for ventilation?

The ventilation would not need room, but adds visual "noise." The define nano S likes to hide the ventilation cutouts, via filters, or side cutouts. While this does decrease performance, it helps give it a clean look.

Right now I already have a design language I've decided on. But I'd like to gather feedback about possible features to incorporate. Expect a render in 2-4 weeks.
 

chyll2

Master of Cramming
Jun 27, 2018
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sounds like a Metis/SKTC Q series but a lot optimized. or maybe similar to taobao case I saw before where in the PSU is above the Motheboard?
 

reasons4reasons

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Jul 9, 2017
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I think there's definitely room in the market for this sort of case. I saw a lot of folks really excited about the Jonsbo U1 Plus, myself included, but the poor airflow and top-mounted PSU threw a lot of people. A thoughtfully-designed case in a similar form-factor would be real nice.

For your specific points:
  • I think intake fans would be a really good choice, especially because other cases in this form-factor tend to leave them out (presumably for aesthetics). The enthusiasm around the Lone L5's initial concept design makes me think that those concerns are overblown, though, and adding them would likely really boost airflow.
  • Watercooling support might be nice, but if there's space for a U12S I'm not sure if there would be a real cooling boost for water over air, and it would probably meaningfully increase volume. Maybe add a 120 or 140mm fan mount where the GPU would sit (if you went with an inverted layout) so you could run a rad there if you didn't need a dGPU?
  • As for features, front-to-back airflow might mean that a side glass panel would make sense, but those are likely a pain in the neck for a small manufacturer so I'd understand not wanting to go near that. That size is also at the point where front IO might be nice, but considering the current state of the USB-C front panel connector standards I can understand avoiding that, too. I do like that you're supporting 2.5" internal drives, as well. They're falling out of favor a bit with M.2, but there's definately space for them in a case this size and having an internal SSD for a game library or a dual-boot disk is still useful.
  • For my part I think I'd prefer a standard motherboard layout just because it would allow a clean top panel, but I know tastes differ. If you did go inverted, I think there's definitely a way you could put the GPU up top that would look artful. Maybe continue the vent pattern from the front fans over to the top panel?
  • I'd be interested in a case like this. If you weren't watercooling (I don't) and were okay with ITX GPU options (I am), it'd provide all the utility of a standard midtower at a significantly smaller volume. With front fans and the taller cooler clearance it might have better cooling potential than something like the M1, too, though it'd obviously be less flexible in other ways.
 
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duynguyenle

Airflow Optimizer
Aug 20, 2019
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I like the idea of being able to fit at least some sort of watercooling. I've had positive experience with the ultraslim XSPC radiator (TX series) and you don't give up too much cooling capabilities with those. Especially since Bykski and Barrow makes full-cover GPU block for compact sized ITX cards such as the Zotac Mini series of cards (goes up to RTX 2080 I believe) as well as the Gigabyte ITX cards, I think it's entirely conceivable that you could have a fully CPU+GPU loop and still fit inside the capacity of a 240mm radiator (with some tinkering and tuning of GPU and CPU voltage)

As for the size of fans, I don't think there's too many benefits in going 140mm unless you can do it without massively increasing the volume, 120mm fans with a 240mm rad should be adequate to cool most things I'd consider stuffing in an SFF case (though this is one area where I suppose more is never enough kinda thing)

Not sure how I feel about inverted motherboard, my gut feeling says no (but I guess never say never)

I assume you're not going with a PCI riser?

Edit: as far as intake in concerned, I am more than happy with perforated holes/slots like the S4 Mini Skyslots on the front panel, instead of blank front panel with side intake like Fractal Design/NZXT type cases, but am not too fussed either way, side intake CAN be done and still afford decent airflow (though never quite as good as fully perforated front facade)
 
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CC Ricers

Shrink Ray Wielder
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Nov 1, 2015
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That's a very narrow tower but It would work, something like a Jonsbo U1 plus but with power supply at the bottom (where I think it's better anyway). Like @duynguyenle I like the potential to pack a watercooling build in that kind of setup, just squeeze as much you can from the available space.
 

Thehack

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I think there's definitely room in the market for this sort of case. I saw a lot of folks really excited about the Jonsbo U1 Plus, myself included, but the poor airflow and top-mounted PSU threw a lot of people. A thoughtfully-designed case in a similar form-factor would be real nice.

For your specific points:
  • I think intake fans would be a really good choice, especially because other cases in this form-factor tend to leave them out (presumably for aesthetics). The enthusiasm around the Lone L5's initial concept design makes me think that those concerns are overblown, though, and adding them would likely really boost airflow.
  • Watercooling support might be nice, but if there's space for a U12S I'm not sure if there would be a real cooling boost for water over air, and it would probably meaningfully increase volume. Maybe add a 120 or 140mm fan mount where the GPU would sit (if you went with an inverted layout) so you could run a rad there if you didn't need a dGPU?
  • As for features, front-to-back airflow might mean that a side glass panel would make sense, but those are likely a pain in the neck for a small manufacturer so I'd understand not wanting to go near that. That size is also at the point where front IO might be nice, but considering the current state of the USB-C front panel connector standards I can understand avoiding that, too. I do like that you're supporting 2.5" internal drives, as well. They're falling out of favor a bit with M.2, but there's definately space for them in a case this size and having an internal SSD for a game library or a dual-boot disk is still useful.
  • For my part I think I'd prefer a standard motherboard layout just because it would allow a clean top panel, but I know tastes differ. If you did go inverted, I think there's definitely a way you could put the GPU up top that would look artful. Maybe continue the vent pattern from the front fans over to the top panel?
  • I'd be interested in a case like this. If you weren't watercooling (I don't) and were okay with ITX GPU options (I am), it'd provide all the utility of a standard midtower at a significantly smaller volume. With front fans and the taller cooler clearance it might have better cooling potential than something like the M1, too, though it'd obviously be less flexible in other ways.

Very good feedback. I think it is important to discuss and gain diverse insight as this will be a bigger project.

1. I like the idea of intake fans. The trade off is how much intake fans are we using and how are we handling the front intake? If we do a solid front panel, like H200/Define Nano S, it would add about 15mm to the overall case. That is about 0.7L for aesthetics. If we assume 2x 120mm fans, then we need at least 20mm clearance in front of the GPU, increasing by almost 1L. If we do 1x120mm, we can also have an 2x80mm on the bottom for the GPU if using standard layout.

Aesthetics is a huge reason why people are drawn to certain designs, I'm leaning towards a solid front panel. I think at the very least, I can offer the solid panel first, and if it does well, I can expand to an airflow version during batch 2.

2. That is my opinion as well on air cooling. The new Noctua NH-U12 is a beast! I would say it can beat most 240 AIOs. But a lot of people prefer AIOs or custom cooling. Sometimes catering to a small minority makes it worth it if some really cool things are born from it. Assuming we stick with front to rear airflow, we can do a 120mm and a 75% 240 rad support. The 120mm radiator can fit with low profile RAM. The 240 radiator would only be able fit 1x 120mm and 2x 60mm, with the center clearance for the GPU. Or full 240 with extra short ITX GPU or no GPU.

3. I cannot do glass. Acrylic is possible, but not at the scale I'm working with.

4. If we use an inverted layout, aftermarket feet can be offered. You can flip the unit right-side up with about 15mm worth of feet to provide clearance for the GPU to breathe. This also allows open up to dual 120mm radiator PC.

5. Offering a single USB C port is a likely feature. The question is to place it in the front or hide it somewhere? I'm guessing it would make sense to use a simple button/IO layout as dancase as that seems like a tasteful design. If done so, would likely be placed at the top.

---- To Tidy the thoughts

LAYOUTS:
Inverted (PSU on opposing side of mobo)
PROS: Can be flipped with additional case feet to hide ventilation. GPU on top orientation allows good ventilation. Using a low power GPU, one can use 140 AIO with no obstructions.
CONS: Cannot use a smaller PSU in exchange for 3 slot GPU.

Standard Mini Tower layout
PROS: Straight forward and people seem to feel more comfortable with it. Using a smaller PSU means you can use a 3 slot card (EVGA).
CONS: Cannot provide easy ventilation for GPU.

Ventilation
1. Solid front panel, top OR bottom ventilation - sleek minimalist design. Works well with both layouts.
2. Solid front panel, top and bottom ventilation - Works best with inverted layout, gives options and is a good compromise between minimalism and functional design.
3. Fully ventilated - Most functional design. Gives you the most cooling and AIO options but the large number of (large) holes means it's a bit of an ugly duckling. Also saves 0.7L of space.
 
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Thehack

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I like the idea of being able to fit at least some sort of watercooling. I've had positive experience with the ultraslim XSPC radiator (TX series) and you don't give up too much cooling capabilities with those. Especially since Bykski and Barrow makes full-cover GPU block for compact sized ITX cards such as the Zotac Mini series of cards (goes up to RTX 2080 I believe) as well as the Gigabyte ITX cards, I think it's entirely conceivable that you could have a fully CPU+GPU loop and still fit inside the capacity of a 240mm radiator (with some tinkering and tuning of GPU and CPU voltage)

As for the size of fans, I don't think there's too many benefits in going 140mm unless you can do it without massively increasing the volume, 120mm fans with a 240mm rad should be adequate to cool most things I'd consider stuffing in an SFF case (though this is one area where I suppose more is never enough kinda thing)

Not sure how I feel about inverted motherboard, my gut feeling says no (but I guess never say never)

I assume you're not going with a PCI riser?

Edit: as far as intake in concerned, I am more than happy with perforated holes/slots like the S4 Mini Skyslots on the front panel, instead of blank front panel with side intake like Fractal Design/NZXT type cases, but am not too fussed either way, side intake CAN be done and still afford decent airflow (though never quite as good as fully perforated front facade)

No PCI riser here. 140mm will likely not be used since it requires tons of space. A full size 120mm can actually be located above RAM slot if we allow clearance for a 160mm tower cooler.

I'm not going with a side panel ventilation for this design, as an NCASE M1 layout is better for it. I have some big ideas for that one down the road if J-HACK makes it to the 2-3 year mark. :D
 
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Tazpr

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Aug 7, 2018
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See I've loved the idea of a standard tower layout with dual front fans and a good quality tower cooler and then an ITX GPU and bottom mounted PSU.

In saying that - does the height usage required for a U12 mean there's a lot of dead space over the GPU?
I think using a U9S with dual 120's and an ITX GPU leads to really clean and compact packaging.


This is a design Michael from Velkase did for me a while back but didn't have time to see through - slightly longer than what I think you were looking at but you get the general idea.
 
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chyll2

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Dead Space over the GPU can be a double sided tape area for ssd(or actual mount for HDD)
 

realdeal36

Chassis Packer
Dec 24, 2017
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Straight to your points:
  1. Would you like to increase size for intake fans?
    I'll second it and say that intakes would nice. I'm not sure how close a dual tower cpu cooler would be to the front panel in such a short case, but I could imagine that there would be a sufficient enough distance to warrant adding something in the front, especially if people want to add dust filters.
  2. Would you like more water cooling support?
    Me personally, no. But, I wouldn't be opposed to it either if I knew other people wanted the support. There was one point in time where I was thinking getting an AIO, so I think having those options available increases the overall value, since someone can plop in either/or at later date without having to buy a different case.
  3. What are some features you'd like to see it support?
    A USB Type C or A in the front would be a nice convenience, but isn't necessary. I'm a function over form type of guy (mostly), so I could care less about how the front panel looks with one. Other people may though. Also, 3-slot GPU support would be great.
  4. What about an inverted motherboard tower? The GPU would end up on top, where it would get fresh air, but the trade off is you have more visible ventilation.
    I'm preferential to the standard mini tower layout. Any holes that aren't front intake, PSU intake, or rear exhaust, I cover up.
  5. Are you interested in buying such a case?
    A strong yes. But you'd be waiting a while for my order. Finding the money to spend on niceties isn't easy, especially when it involves supporting yourself through college...
 
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Thehack

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See I've loved the idea of a standard tower layout with dual front fans and a good quality tower cooler and then an ITX GPU and bottom mounted PSU.

In saying that - does the height usage required for a U12 mean there's a lot of dead space over the GPU?
I think using a U9S with dual 120's and an ITX GPU leads to really clean and compact packaging.


This is a design Michael from Velkase did for me a while back but didn't have time to see through - slightly longer than what I think you were looking at but you get the general idea.

The idea is for power workstation builds. There are few choices if you require more cpu than gpu, especially for air cooling. We are about to release a 16 core "consumer" desktop cpu.

I do agree a U9S and itx gpu gives you a solid tight and small layout.
 

Windfall

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Nov 14, 2017
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This should be a good desk-space saver. I had been working on a similar modcube-based system, but you beat me to it.

It'll be interesting to see what you come up with!
 

duynguyenle

Airflow Optimizer
Aug 20, 2019
329
331
Re: Front panel IO, I guess I'm one of those weird people who prefer a full suite of connectors on the front (A couple of USBs, type A or C if that's an option) and audio jacks. I prefer the functionality of being able to stick my headphone in quickly especially if it's dark in the room which seems to be a convenience that most people building small rigs don't care about or are happy to forgo for the aesthetic values of a blank front facade.

I'd be very happy if the design has a fully featured front panel cluster or at least offer it as an option!
 

masteraleph

SFF Lingo Aficionado
May 28, 2017
91
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  • Would you like to increase size for intake fans?
  • Would you like more water cooling support?
  • What are some features you'd like to see it support?
  • What about an inverted motherboard tower? The GPU would end up on top, where it would get fresh air, but the trade off is you have more visible ventilation.
  • Are you interested in buying such a case?

1) I think the intake fans are kind of a necessity for really good temps. I think they can actually be done tastefully with an open front, but I totally get people who don't love that idea.
2) Not really interested in watercooling support, but I'd imagine that if there are easy tradeoffs it should be done.
3) As others have noted, having a front side port is nice, but I don't need (or really want) full front side I/O- I tend to use a headphone amp anyways.
4) I'm fine with that. FWIW, depending on the ventilation pattern, that could add interesting RGB opportunities for those who are interested- I know that's probably not your thing, but probably worth considering.
5) Maybe? I keep going back and forth between this and a Lazer3d XTD oriented vertically- relatively similar in certain ways, though with different fan orientation and obviously different looks.

What are you thinking of in terms of dimensions?
 

Thehack

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Depending on the features.

It seems like there are many who are willing to forgo watercooling if there is air cooling available. In that case, I am thinking of the following:

- ITX GPU + ITX Mobo
- SFX PSU. Dual slot + 15 mm clearance.
- Up to 160mm CPU cooler clearance
- 120mm AIO/Fan in the rear.
- 2X 120mm fan in the front (1 slim fan, 1 full size fan)
- Single 92mm fan in the bottom

Overall dimensions: 180mm (w) 210mm (d) 285mm (h) - 10.7L. Quite big actually.

If we optimize in exchange for aesthetics we can:
1. Remove solid panel in exchange for airflow panel (saves 0.7L)
2. Change to PSU opposite of GPU (saves about .4L)

Overall dimensions of size/airflow optimize: 180mm (w) 190mm (d) 278mm (h) - 9.5L
 
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masteraleph

SFF Lingo Aficionado
May 28, 2017
91
64
That first one does feel big. Not sure why you wouldn't change the PSU location?

Though 1 slim/1 full on the front feels...odd?