Enclosure Is there any SFF case worth the upgrade from a Raven RVZ02?

[Andpetr]

Hello everyone,

I have a SilverStone Raven RVZ02 which I love but I just upgraded the CPU moving from an Intel I5 6600K to an AMD Ryzen 3600 and the chip is getting hotter.
I’m using a Black Ridge with a Noctua 120x15 fan on top to keep things as cool as possible, but I’m wondering if water-cooling could help with temps and noise.
I do not have any throttling nor I want to overclock, I’m just pissed off by having 50-60° idle temps.

The Raven RVZ02 is pretty old and does not have any option for water cooling (I have a full-size GTX1080), but has the perfect form-factor for me, especially the low width (less than 9cm) that is a must for me, given it is hidden behind the television.

So my questions are:
- is it worth to upgrade to a water-cooled case/solution?
- is there any SFF Case with a form-factor similar to the Raven (maybe higher, that’s not a problem, but not much wider) which can be efficiently water-cooled and maybe (optional) with a glass panel? I’m searching all the existing SFF cases but I couldn’t find any,

Thank you very much in advance,
Andrea

 

[nkresho]

I had a similar issues with a 3600 under a scythe big shuriken. Using a raijintek opheon at the time. I ended upgrading to a 240mm aio and the opheon Evo. Idles are now in the 30s and load temps rarely exceed 70s.

Oddly enough I built a 2600 machine at the same time and under the shuriken it idles in the 30s and load never approaches the 90s the 3600 did under the same tests. Unlike the 3600 machine, it never urged me to explore better cooling.

 

[Midiamp]

I wonder if you play around with Windows power scheme? AMD's turbo boost is slightly fickle and you have to rein it in manually. I use Noctua NH-L12S on my 3700X, idle at 41 C on ambient room temp of 28 C. It's rainy season, so usually it's more or less 2-3 degrees C more.

I use Power Saver power scheme from Windows 10. It parks 2 cores (4 threads) and limits the clock speed to 2200 MHz. Which is enough for my daily work load. When I want to play games, for low demanding games, I just run it through power saver scheme, but switches to Ryzen balanced power scheme for more demanding games.

I use the RVZ03, it supports thin rad 120mm AIO such as Corsair H60 or Coolermaster liquid lite 120. I read at pcpartpicker build site and most of them are using H60. But do try the power saver scheme first. For ease of use I use PowerSwitcher which puts a shortcut for power plans on the taskbar, you can download it from Windows Store, assuming you're on Windows 10.

 

[txporter]

Another thing to consider if you are not interested in overclocking is to just undervolt it. I just recently set up my 3600 in a Silverstone ML06-E. I also had all sorts of issues at the stock settings with a Noctua NL-L12S cooler. I was able to undervolt to 1.15V and still run an all-core frequency of 4.2GHz. I am getting better benchmark results than I was stock and the chip is much much cooler.

Stock:

1.15V undervolt @ 4.2GHz

 

[ignsvn]

given it is hidden behind the television.

Is there enough room for fresh air around the case?

 

[Andpetr]

I had a similar issues with a 3600 under a scythe big shuriken. Using a raijintek opheon at the time. I ended upgrading to a 240mm aio and the opheon Evo. Idles are now in the 30s and load temps rarely exceed 70s.

Thanks, the Ophion Evo looks like an interesting case, albeit double as large than the RVZ02. Two questions here:
- Do you know if it is also compatible with SFX PSUs?
- In the same form factor, I saw the (much more expensive) Sliger SM580. Any big difference between the two?

 

[Andpetr]

Is there enough room for fresh air around the case?

No, there’s not, that’s why I’m thinking about a better cooled case. Moving away the PC is not an option at the moment.

 

[Andpetr]

I wonder if you play around with Windows power scheme? AMD's turbo boost is slightly fickle and you have to rein it in manually. I use Noctua NH-L12S on my 3700X, idle at 41 C on ambient room temp of 28 C. It's rainy season, so usually it's more or less 2-3 degrees C more.

I use Power Saver power scheme from Windows 10. It parks 2 cores (4 threads) and limits the clock speed to 2200 MHz. Which is enough for my daily work load. When I want to play games, for low demanding games, I just run it through power saver scheme, but switches to Ryzen balanced power scheme for more demanding games.

I use the RVZ03, it supports thin rad 120mm AIO such as Corsair H60 or Coolermaster liquid lite 120. I read at pcpartpicker build site and most of them are using H60. But do try the power saver scheme first. For ease of use I use PowerSwitcher which puts a shortcut for power plans on the taskbar, you can download it from Windows Store, assuming you're on Windows 10.

Thanks, I played a lot with power schemes and I can confirm that using the Power Saving mode reduces significantly the idle/load temps. Anyway with this post I would rather focus on better cases, not on improving my temps in the RVZ02.

Regarding the RVZ03,, which I was investigating, a couple of questions:
- If I remember correctly, it is designed for ATX PSUs. Do you know if it also support SFX PSUs Without the need for adapters?
- Also, do you think that a 120mm AIO will cool better that a 120mm Air Cooler? I’ve read contrasting opinions on the web, that’s why I was looking more for a 240-280mm AIO capable case.

 

[Andpetr]

Another thing to consider if you are not interested in overclocking is to just undervolt it. I just recently set up my 3600 in a Silverstone ML06-E. I also had all sorts of issues at the stock settings with a Noctua NL-L12S cooler. I was able to undervolt to 1.15V and still run an all-core frequency of 4.2GHz. I am getting better benchmark results than I was stock and the chip is much much cooler.

Thanks, even if this post is more about the case, this is something that I’m willing to try, given you observed no drop in performance.
I’m no expert on overclocking. Would you mind to explain me a little how to do this? Do I need to do this in the BIOS on in the AMD app? Which parameters should I change?

Also, it’s worth notice that currently I get high temperatures also in my X570 chipset (Aorus X570 I Pro WiFi) and M.2 drive.

Thanks

 

[ignsvn]

No, there’s not, that’s why I’m thinking about a better cooled case. Moving away the PC is not an option at the moment.

If that's the case, then don't expect much, even from a better air cooler / case. I mean, black ridge is already one of the better low profile air coolers out there, but even the best air cooler won't do miracle if it's not given enough clearance for hot & fresh air to exchange & circulate.

I'm not sure with AIO tho - I don't have experience with AIO.

Also, I suggest to undervolt a bit.

And yes, X570 chipset is hot indeed.

Edit: perhaps can share a picture of where/how you put your case.

 

[Andpetr]

Edit: perhaps can share a picture of where/how you put your case.

Yes, I’ll do as soon as possible

 

[txporter]

Thanks, even if this post is more about the case, this is something that I’m willing to try, given you observed no drop in performance.
I’m no expert on overclocking. Would you mind to explain me a little how to do this? Do I need to do this in the BIOS on in the AMD app? Which parameters should I change?

Also, it’s worth notice that currently I get high temperatures also in my X570 chipset (Aorus X570 I Pro WiFi) and M.2 drive.

Thanks

Here is a link to a thread on the overclockers forum where I was trying to work through this. I actually started working on this with a post on this site before moving over to overclockers to try to get some more pointers.

There are actually at least two different ways to go about running a fixed voltage/frequency on my Ryzen chip/board combination. I think this is true for most/all the AMD motherboard BIOS. At any rate, the most obvious way on my board (Gigabyte B450 mITX) is to set a voltage and frequency to whatever value in the Advanced Voltage and Advanced Frequency menus (these are options on the first menu I see when entering the BIOS.) There are some posts around the net that explain that undervolt here can lead to clock spreading. I am not totally clear on this and I don't believe I actually saw it when doing it, but basically even though monitoring software would indicate that you were operating successfully at your new conditions (say you set 1V and 4.2GHz), your benchmark scores would actually drop off significantly (in relation to your voltage setting).

What I ended up doing, was leaving the frequency setting in the Advanced Frequency menu as Auto and setting the Advanced Voltage menu to Normal. Then I moved to the Advanced Overclocking menu, and set my desired voltage and frequency. How I came to the numbers that I did is the following:

1. Run a number of benchmark tests at stock settings to get a feel for the performance and thermals (Cinebench, PassMark, Prime95, etc)
2. Find a voltage setting that results in thermals generally where you want to end up. So I think I started with 1.1V, and I just set the frequency at the nominal frequency of my chip (3.6GHz). I then ran some of the benchmarks again to see what temperatures I got. If you like the temperature, then its time to play with the frequency. I think I might have jumped up to 3.9GHz and tried again. I think you can probably safely start at 4.0GHz to begin with.
3. Keep adjusting the frequency up until you start to experience random system resets. On my 3600, I can run stably at 4.175GHz with 1.1V, but it would reboot around 7mins into Prime95 at 4.2GHz & 1.1V. I ended up bumping my voltage slightly to 1.15V so that I could just run at 4.2GHz (the normal boost frequency for 3600). I think I could probably continue testing and run at a slightly lower voltage (maybe 1.13V), but I am happy with what I have.
4. Also make sure that you move away from your stock memory settings and it seems to be recommended that you do this once you figure out where you want to run your cpu. I am not sure that actually matters. My memory has a XMP profile to run at 3200MHz. That did not work for me. If I set the XMP profile, it was not able to post. It would reset back to stock. I ended up manually setting the memory voltage to 1.35V (manufacturer recommendation for 3200MHz), the clock frequency to 1600MHz (half the memory frequency) and using the timings from the manufacturer (I think it was 16-18-18-[18]-36). You can usually find those on their website (mine).
5. Apparently with the 3000 series Ryzen, it is best to try to get your memory up to ~3600MHz because the infinity fabric engine can run up to ~1800MHz. Infinity fabric is the interconnect between the cpu and the memory and I/Os. That is theoritically the highest 1:1 operating point for memory and IF. I was able to get my memory to run at 3600MHz using 1.35V, 18-19-19-[19]-42 timing. It did seem worthwhile to mess with memory speeds, I think I picked up high single digit percentages in benchmarks and it is basically for free. (I am away from home so going by memory here).

Basically, I think I bought myself in the neighborhood of 15C at load by undervolting with better performance than what I was seeing at stock.

I ended up changing my fan curve for noise concerns. It did not help with thermals, but it stopped the fan racing I was noting whenever I did anything on my machine (moved mouse, opened webpage, etc). I set a constant 55% fan speed from 0-55C and then linearly increased it to 100% at 80C.

I also undervolted my gpu with MSI Afterburner to reduce those temperatures (I might have gotten a little crazed with optimizing temperatures at this point...). I was able to drop down to 0.9V with slightly higher boost frequencies (and definitely more stable) and save about 7C on my gpu at load as well.

 

[nkresho]

Thanks, the Ophion Evo looks like an interesting case, albeit double as large than the RVZ02. Two questions here:
- Do you know if it is also compatible with SFX PSUs?
- In the same form factor, I saw the (much more expensive) Sliger SM580. Any big difference between the two?

I have an SFX-L in mine, so absolutely. It'll fit ATX, but tight, and likely no room for an AIO. I'm not nearly as familiar with the Sliger, so can't add any valuable input there.

 

[Midiamp]

Regarding the RVZ03,, which I was investigating, a couple of questions:
- If I remember correctly, it is designed for ATX PSUs. Do you know if it also support SFX PSUs Without the need for adapters?
- Also, do you think that a 120mm AIO will cool better that a 120mm Air Cooler? I’ve read contrasting opinions on the web, that’s why I was looking more for a 240-280mm AIO capable case.

Adapter is a must, the PSU bracket is for standard ATX unit. However, Silverstone ain't fooling anybody, as the optimal PSU is still for SFX, there's too tight of a room for regular ATX and the accompanying long cables. I bought Corsair SF750 just for the case, it comes with a bracket, so fits right in.

In theory AIO should cool better size per size. In practice, it's very situational. I've personally build and use SFF and ATX mid towers for the last decade due to me working as sales rep for GPU and storage principles, so I have to experience the products myself. You can read/watch every air vs water cooling, there's plenty of it. Water cooling in SFF needs to be backed up by a good ventilation, or else your radiator will get heat soaked, at this point it's better to use air cooling since after you stop doing things that maxed out your system so it heats up, it will cool down faster. With water cooling, once the water temp heats up, it takes longer to cool off.

Your GPU fans also takes into account in SFF, best is always blower as heat blown out of the case, only leaving backplate ambient heat that is more manageable. Once you go axial fans, better to use horizontal stacked fins so some of the hot air got blown outside rather than vertical stacked fins that blows all hot exhaust inside your case. If you use radiator on exhaust inside a tower style SFF case like the Lian Li TU150, you can kiss that radiator cooling efficiency goodbye as it will heat soak the GPU exhaust air.

With that said, thermal performance depends on the mix of component you use. Going small form factor have its pros and cons and you already know this with your current build. The closest case I can recommend that is similar to RVZ02 is the RVZ03 or Lian Li PC-05S. The PC-05S has room for 240mm radiator at top, but I always build a PC with positive air pressure so hot air forced out of the case. Go see pcpartpicker website for some build info on the PC-05S.

Happy hunting.

 

[Andpetr]

Here is a link to a thread on the overclockers forum where I was trying to work through this. I actually started working on this with a post on this site before moving over to overclockers to try to get some more pointers.

Thanks, onestly it looks much more complex than I expected

 

[Andpetr]

Adapter is a must, the PSU bracket is for standard ATX unit. However, Silverstone ain't fooling anybody, as the optimal PSU is still for SFX, there's too tight of a room for regular ATX and the accompanying long cables. I bought Corsair SF750 just for the case, it comes with a bracket, so fits right in.

In theory AIO should cool better size per size. In practice, it's very situational. I've personally build and use SFF and ATX mid towers for the last decade due to me working as sales rep for GPU and storage principles, so I have to experience the products myself. You can read/watch every air vs water cooling, there's plenty of it. Water cooling in SFF needs to be backed up by a good ventilation, or else your radiator will get heat soaked, at this point it's better to use air cooling since after you stop doing things that maxed out your system so it heats up, it will cool down faster. With water cooling, once the water temp heats up, it takes longer to cool off.

Your GPU fans also takes into account in SFF, best is always blower as heat blown out of the case, only leaving backplate ambient heat that is more manageable. Once you go axial fans, better to use horizontal stacked fins so some of the hot air got blown outside rather than vertical stacked fins that blows all hot exhaust inside your case. If you use radiator on exhaust inside a tower style SFF case like the Lian Li TU150, you can kiss that radiator cooling efficiency goodbye as it will heat soak the GPU exhaust air.

With that said, thermal performance depends on the mix of component you use. Going small form factor have its pros and cons and you already know this with your current build. The closest case I can recommend that is similar to RVZ02 is the RVZ03 or Lian Li PC-05S. The PC-05S has room for 240mm radiator at top, but I always build a PC with positive air pressure so hot air forced out of the case. Go see pcpartpicker website for some build info on the PC-05S.

Happy hunting.

Thanks, these are very insightful comments.

Anyway, at this point the best option to me looks like the Ophion Evo in this configuration, albeit I’m not sure it is worth to upgrade:
- Ophion Evo + eventually one aluminium side instead of the glass one (on the GPU side)
- Top: 240mm Kraken X53 to cool the Ryzen 3600, with Noctua Chromax 120x25 fans instead of the NZXT ones
- Bottom: 120mm Noctua Chromax Fan
- Hopefully, this configuration, with top and bottom fans will also help with GPU temps (I currently have a blower-style 1080 Founder Edition)
- One alternative could be to use two 120 radiators to cool both the CPU and the GPU but I don’t know if this will be a good idea

PS: PC-05S looks very costly but very good. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to find any available (at least here in Italy). Are they still in production?

 

[Midiamp]

Thanks, these are very insightful comments.

Anyway, at this point the best option to me looks like the Ophion Evo in this configuration, albeit I’m not sure it is worth to upgrade:
- Ophion Evo + eventually one aluminium side instead of the glass one (on the GPU side)
- Top: 240mm Kraken X53 to cool the Ryzen 3600, with Noctua Chromax 120x25 fans instead of the NZXT ones
- Bottom: 120mm Noctua Chromax Fan
- Hopefully, this configuration, with top and bottom fans will also help with GPU temps (I currently have a blower-style 1080 Founder Edition)
- One alternative could be to use two 120 radiators to cool both the CPU and the GPU but I don’t know if this will be a good idea

PS: PC-05S looks very costly but very good. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to find any available (at least here in Italy). Are they still in production?

You got my seal of approval for Ophion Evo... If my approval worth anything that is... I thought you're into vertical case only or I would suggest the Ophion Evo as well. It's not to my liking with the gap between the tempered glass and the frame, but it should help draw in cooler air. Replacing any fan with a Noctua fan is my default build creed, so you're good. Your 1080 FE should do fine, blower fans are perfect for small enclosures.

Cooling both CPU and GPU? AIO or custom loop? OK for custom loop, no no for AIO. You'll have hot air blowing into the case, and one of the AIO radiator will suffer from the heat soak. You can mitigate this by using custom loop and use only one radiator on top.

Lian-Li is very much a boutique case makers nowadays, nobody wanted to stock their products because of the high price and Lian-Li outside of the PC-011 (endorsed by DerBauer) is very much a niche product.

 

[Andpetr]

You got my seal of approval for Ophion Evo... If my approval worth anything that is... I thought you're into vertical case only or I would suggest the Ophion Evo as well. It's not to my liking with the gap between the tempered glass and the frame, but it should help draw in cooler air. Replacing any fan with a Noctua fan is my default build creed, so you're good. Your 1080 FE should do fine, blower fans are perfect for small enclosures.

Cooling both CPU and GPU? AIO or custom loop? OK for custom loop, no no for AIO. You'll have hot air blowing into the case, and one of the AIO radiator will suffer from the heat soak. You can mitigate this by using custom loop and use only one radiator on top.

Lian-Li is very much a boutique case makers nowadays, nobody wanted to stock their products because of the high price and Lian-Li outside of the PC-011 (endorsed by DerBauer) is very much a niche product.

Midiamp, thanks again for your precious inputs! Really appreciated.

You’re right, I’m more into vertical cases but I measured the space I have behind my TV and the Ophion Evo will (barely) fit. Vertical will be better but at this point I don’t see any vertical case which is readily available and is able to accomodate 240mm radiator. Maybe I should create one

Cheers!

 

[txporter]

Thanks, onestly it looks much more complex than I expected

Yeah, it takes time to find settings that are optimal. I like the tinkering, so it was a fun exercise. If that is not your thing, then definitely find a solution that can work for you with little tinkering needed. Good luck!

 

[nkresho]

The aluminium panels are an awesome upgrade if you do go with the evo. Newegg has them in stock when I ordered mine a few weeks ago. Also takes off a little thickness and let's the gpu breathe better.

I would recommend seeing if you can shorten the psu cables if you're into that kind of thing. Not anywhere to really hide cables in the case if you're ocd and want it to look clean. I'm running a seasonic psu and all the connectors at the unit use pci-e connectors. I trim to fit and crimp on new connectors. I can get them exactly as long as I want.

If you're not too picky with the cabling, disregard. Also, with the alu panels you won't see it anyway.