Advice I want to upgrade but keep my beloved A4-SFX v4.1

[Crazy Bytes]

Hi everybody,

I want to upgrade my current build but I am unsure on which cpu to use.

I wanted to wait till the end of this year for the new 14th gen Intel CPUs in hope of improved thermals and an upgradable new socket. But, while working with my rig is still okay, gaming has become quite unsatisfying - not to mention it has become impossible to do gaming and parallel streaming without serious FPS drops. I monitored my stats and identified my old GTX 1070 as bottleneck. I got lucky and was able to get a new RTX 3070 last January. Now my bottleneck is my CPU. So I decided to bite the bullet and upgrade now.

My current build:

• ASUS Strix ROG Z270-I Gaming
• Intel core i5-6600K (delidded, internally swapped to Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut and resealed IHS, externally using Artic MX-4)
• Noctua NH-L9i
• G.Skill 32GB Kit (2x16GB) Trident Royal Z Silver (DDR4-3600)
• EVGA GeForce RTX 3070 XC3 Ultra Gaming
• Corsair SF600 (80+ Gold)
• Samsung 950 PRO M.2 NVME PCIe 256GB (system)
• Crucial MX300 M.2 SATA III 1TB

My target build would be:

• ASUS Strix ROG Z790-I Gaming
• Intel core i7-13700/13700K or i9-13900/13900K
• Asetek 645LT or Modultra LOBO or similar EK Waterblock variant
• G.Skill 96GB Kit (2x48GB) Trident Royal Z Silver (DDR5-6400)
• SilverStone SFX Series SX800-LTI 800W SFX-L or Corsair SF-L SF850L 850W ATX3.0
• EVGA GeForce RTX 3070 XC3 Ultra Gaming
  later switch to RTX 4070 or RTX 4070 Ti

I am concerned about the thermals of the system. I would prefer the i9-13900 because it has more cores, which would benefit my work (software developing, testing and virtualizing/containering) and streaming. As far as I have done my research the 13900 is getting very hot underload.

I am willing to:
- undervolt / power limit
- delid and switch to liquid metal
- do direct die cooling (if possible)

Anybody got any 13900 running in an A4 with decent temps without throttling?
Or should I go safe and go the 13700?
Would I have the same thermal issues with the 13700?

Best regards,
CB

 

[mikejmcfarlane]

Hi, i7-13700K is def fine, particularly if undervolted. You can also get away with some overclocking without thermal throttling again if undervolted.
Not sure on the i9-13900K. In my build log at https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/a-journey-from-the-tower-to-something-sff.18487/ i did some thermal and synthetic benchmark comparisons between an i9-12900K in a tower and an i7-13700K in a A4-H20.
You've really got to want that extra performance from the i9, the i7 K series is a pretty awesome CPU.

 

[Snerual]

Have you considered an Alpenfoehn Black RIdge with a Noctua fan? I think the Asetek AIO is not that much better...

Assuming you have 70-80W of thermal budget, it's going to be either lots of cores at low frequencies, or fewer cores at high frequencies. The advantage is, modern processors take care of that automatically. It really depends on how many cores you really need... you are on a 6th gen i5 right now so even something like a Ryzen 7 5700G will be a massive upgrade (and is super easy to cool even with a Noctua L9i).

The i9 only makes sense if you expect workloads that scale well across all 24 cores at lower frequencies. An i7 might have fewer cores but it will be able to run those cores at a higher frequency.

What exactly do you mean by "no thermal throttling"? if you go Intel there WILL be some thermal throttling, in the sense that some performance is left on the table because you will NOT be able to run these CPUs at 200W+. On the other hand, you could have 0 thermal throttling by slapping an Intel stock cooler on there, as long as you lower the voltages and frequencies far enough.

Why not an i5 13600? I think that is probably the highest you can go while taking full advantage of the silicon and you will be going from 4 threads to 20 threads which is a gigantic upgrade for productivity.

 

[wertzius]

Throw out the ASETEK and go for the Blackridge with a Noctua Redux fan - it is good for 100W+.
The ASETEK also does not fit with SFX-L power supplies.
Forget about the I9 in the A4 - The 13600, maybe the 13700 will be more than fine - the I9 is just money out the window in the A4.
Where do you want to place the radiator for your custom watercooling variant? It is just not a watercooling case and a 92mm radiator does not have any advantages against a Blackridge - but you would need to change the board to make it work.

I guess you have chosen the board for Thunderbolt? Then only a Noctua L9a with duct would be a bearable choice - i am experimenting with an IS-60 EVO without top fan atm but do not have any conclusions for now.

 

[scatterforce]

The Thermalright AXP-90 x47 full copper works ALMOST as good as the Blackridge without concerns of motherboard compatibility. It will perform better than the Nocuta L9a. The negative: depending on the z-height of your motherboard, you might get turbulence from the side panel.

Also, I would aim for a 4070. With the backlash of VRAM and the rumors of upping the 4060ti ram capacity, I feel NVIDIA will update the '70 series with a Super model with 16GB of ram. Personally, I would feel cheated if I bought the 4070ti with 12GB when there is a chance of it getting replaced in 6 months. *This is just speculation* I would save $200 and skip the 'ti model.

 

[wertzius]

@scatterforce You will definitely get turbulence noise with the AXP90-47 - i tried the IS-47-XT and it was absolutely unbearable.

 

[Crazy Bytes]

Thanks for ypur replies so far.

You've really got to want that extra performance from the i9, the i7 K series is a pretty awesome CPU.

When working, I run a Kuberntes (k8s) cluster on my system with 15 - 40 pods. But the amount of pods will continue growing. So in my opinion I would benefit more from more cores with lower frequencies than from fewer cores with higher frequency. For gaming this should still be more than enough, since the main cpu load from gaming will probably scale over 2 - 4 P-cores. When I add streaming whlie gaming, the E-cores should do the trick for encoding the stream.

This build should work for at least 5 years, so i guess a bigger cpu would last longer.

Have you considered an Alpenfoehn Black RIdge with a Noctua fan? I think the Asetek AIO is not that much better...

If conventional air cooling would be sufficient or even better I will consider the Blackridge combo or alternatives. In my research for cooling the A4 I found videos or builds from the last 2 years where primarily the Asetek AIO or custom loops were used, so I thought this would be the way to go. I considered direct-die cooling, all resources on that subject I could find - primarily der8auer videos on youtube - were using watercooling. So maybe I got a bit biased.

What exactly do you mean by "no thermal throttling"?

The cpu won't throttle down because of reaching temps above 90-95°C, which can either be achieved by

• Applying a sufficient cooling solution
• Undervolting / power-limiting
• Optimized BIOS cpu settings and/or
• etc.

In my past experience delidding the cpu and replacing the thermal paste layer with liquid metal between die and IHS dropped temps by 10-15°C. And if I could could manage a direct die cooling there should be another 3-5°C achievable.

 

[Crazy Bytes]

The ASETEK also does not fit with SFX-L power supplies

The above stated PSUs are my preferred choice. The SilverStone was the only SFX PSU with 80+ Titanium I could find with 750W+ While the Cosair PSU is certified ACX3.0 which would by compaible for newer GPU cards like the RTX 40 series.

Also, I would aim for a 4070. With the backlash of VRAM and the rumors of upping the 4060ti ram capacity, I feel NVIDIA will update the '70 series with a Super model with 16GB of ram. Personally, I would feel cheated if I bought the 4070ti with 12GB when there is a chance of it getting replaced in 6 months. *This is just speculation* I would save $200 and skip the 'ti model

Personally I would like to add the most powerful RTX 40 with a dual slot dimension I can fit in my A4. the current available 4070 and 4070 ti are the only models as far as I know. Since I jusr got my 3070 I will probably wait till december or later and see what the market has to offer by then.

Best regards,
CB

 

[wertzius]

@Crazy Bytes Attention! You seem to mix up the A4 H2O and the A4 SFX alot. The Custom Loops you have seen are within the A4 H2O for sure which is much bigger than the A4 SFX. So about which case are we talking?

Custom Loops in the A4 are only possible with tiny or without GPUs - or a 92mm slim rad like the ASETEK has.

 

[Crazy Bytes]

@Crazy Bytes Attention! You seem to mix up the A4 H2O and the A4 SFX alot. The Custom Loops you have seen are within the A4 H2O for sure which is much bigger than the A4 SFX. So about which case are we talking?

I am talking about the A4-SFX v4.1. The custom loops I have seen were the Modultra LOBO or EK pumpblock combo with either 92mm or 120mm rads and custom tubing. Since these builds are not a AIO ready product, I consider them as custom loops.

Best regards,
CB

 

[wertzius]

Sure, they are - but if you want to fit a 4070 - it just won't work.

 

[dondan]

I recommend a simple build.

- Noctua L9a or Thermalright AXP-90
- Noctua FAN duct
- Thermalright socket 1700 contact frame
- Thermal Grizzly paste
- 13700 limit to 65W in UEFI
- Keep the Corsair SF600

Dont waste your time with the 92mm AIO

GPU:
Inno3D RTX 4070 Ti or none Ti
Nvidia RTX 4070 FE

 

[Snerual]

/end thread lol

The legend himself has spoken now you have no choice but to build it exactly like that

 

[Crazy Bytes]

@dondan Thank you for recommendation.

I have lookud up possible fan cooling solutions the past 2 days and the AXP-90 looks like the best bet.

Would you recommend maybe an i9-13900T? It has a bit less ferquency but the power draw is specified from 35W to 106W which should be within limits of e.g. the AXP-90. And based on specification it seems to perfoerm slightly better than a i7-13700.

I know I said i would prefer 13700/13700K or 13900/13900,. but is there something to the T-models that they are not considered at all?

Or are their performances so much worse then normal or K-models?

 

[scatterforce]

I know I said i would prefer 13700/13700K or 13900/13900,. but is there something to the T-models that they are not considered at all?

Or are their performances so much worse then normal or K-models?

Most people in these forums would rather get a normal chip and undervolt/underclock it. This allows you to adjust the power to match your cooler and get the most performance possible. The issue with the T-models is that you can't push them; they come as they are and there isn't much tweaking possible. If that's what you want, then go right ahead. Not everyone wants to spend days(weeks?) testing CPUs for stability.

 

[Crazy Bytes]

I have decided to go the long way and test the limits. I ordered one of each (13700, 13700K, 13900 and 13900K) today. The remaining CPUs will go either to my kids or friends. When I have all parts (CPUs, cooler, RAM, etc.) I will start a Log thread.

I thank everybody who participated in this thread and offered experience and recommendations/alternatives.

 

[dondan]

Its not that hard. On every modern motherboard you can limit CPU power draw in UEFI. This should be your baseline. If you now play with undervolting - your CPU will clock higher while beeing in the power limit. For example -0.05V should work on every CPU.

PS: The Thermalright AXP-47 copper is the strongest option but it will create air turbulences - sitting close to the side panel.

 

[DaHans]

I have decided to go the long way and test the limits. I ordered one of each (13700, 13700K, 13900 and 13900K) today. The remaining CPUs will go either to my kids or friends. When I have all parts (CPUs, cooler, RAM, etc.) I will start a Log thread.

I thank everybody who participated in this thread and offered experience and recommendations/alternatives.

So how did it work in the end?

 

[Kraiggers]

yes, I’d like to know as well…

 

[Crazy Bytes]

Hi again,

I have some health issues and an unplanned surgery because of it. And I am still running from appointment to appointment, so I got delayed.

I have all parts together. I wanted to start a build log but had issues embedding pictures, since images are not hosted on this site but need to be linked instead. I hope I get to it on upcoming weekend.

I have replaced the ILM on the mainboard and mounted the 13900K and the 13700K and with the cpu contact frame from ThermalGrizzly and applied Artic MX-4 thermalpaste. When I mounted the cpu cooler I had issues mounting the AXP90 on the mainboard, because of some soldered parts close to the cpu bracket created issues mounting the backplate. I did cut off a bit off the backplate to make it fit. (I have pictures, I will post them in my build log soon).

The board told me a SP value of 99 for the 13900K and 97 for the 13700K cpu. I don't know if this are good or bad values. But I think since my goal is to minimize heat and voltage instead of overclocking I guess I can neglect these values.

I booted the system up into the bios and let it idle for about 45 minutes each. I booted with default factory settings and default fan profile (20% at 20°C, 40% at 45°C+, 70% at 65°C+, 100% at 80°C+). The 13900K set at 65-67°C after about 20 mins. The 13700K set at 58-60°C after about 20 minutes. So far no problems (neither shorts nor error messages).
I used the full AXP90-X47, the full Noctua NH-L9i 17xx and a combination of the heatsink from the AXP90 and the fan from the NH-L9i.

The temps were all the same for each cpu. Since the temps are in my temporary open build on my desk, they will increase if I shelf everything into the case. Currently I am struggling if I want to delid the cpus or not. I have seen that Noctua released a direct die mounting kit for AMD cpus, my hope is that they will do the same for Intel cpus. currently the other direct die kit I know off for Intel cpus is from EK Waterblocks for the Velocity² cooling system.

Best regards,
CB