Prototyping Fr33Flow 48mm CPU Block + Pump + Res (maybe)

Wahaha360

Overhaul
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
835
2,702
Update 2019-04-09 : Slow, but not forgotten. Making prototypes using aluminum. Once designed finalized, will make POM version.


Update 2019-01-14 : Block Pump Prototype 1





A lot of you guys are familiar with the Swiftech Apogee Drive ii, but it's too tall (~66mm with fittings on one side, ~62mm on the other side) for a lot of the builds.



I have been working with a small shop to get a low profile (~48mm) CPU Block + DDC Pump + Res (maybe) combo that will work for the A4, C4, Ghost S1, M1, Mach One and Skyreach 4 Mini.

Renderings




Prototype

I'm working on Version 2 now, Intel Mount on top, AMD Mount on bottom.
 
Last edited:

rfarmer

SFF Guru
Silver Supporter
Jul 7, 2017
1,448
1,388

A lot of you guys are familiar with the Swiftech Apogee Drive, but it's too tall (~66mm with fittings on one side, ~62mm on the other side) for a lot of the builds.

I have been working with a small shop to get a low profile (~48mm) CPU Block + DDC Pump + Res (maybe) combo that will work for the A4, C4, Ghost S1, M1, Mach One and Skyreach 4 Mini. Here are some pictures of prototype 1.


I'm working on Version 2 now, Intel Mount on top, AMD Mount on bottom.


My problem now is that its already 92x92x24mm thick. Right angle G1/4 fittings will make it 54mm thick :(. I was really hoping to get to 48mm.

Anyone know of 24mm tall 90 degree G1/4 fittings?
Koolance makes some that are 23mm. Looks like to get the clearance you want you would have to forgo compression fittings and use barbs.
 

fabio

King of Cable Management
Gold Supporter
Apr 6, 2016
814
878
Yes, the only one I know Ali’s from Koolance.
Otherwise you should try to have it taller, like 38/40 and having the threads on the side
 

Goatee

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jun 22, 2018
219
320
Have a look at the fractal kelvin block/pumps.

They use a dc-lt pump which for a small form factor PC should be more than sufficient and is much smaller than a ddc.
 

Wahaha360

Overhaul
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
835
2,702
Have a look at the fractal kelvin block/pumps.

They use a dc-lt pump which for a small form factor PC should be more than sufficient and is much smaller than a ddc.
I asked @Josh | NFC to do a test, and he posted a video about it - the Fractal Design Celcius AIO / DC-LT pump is 3-5C worse than the DDC.

I suspect it has to do with flow rate and pressure, the DC-LT is not powerful enough on high FPI radiators as well.

JaysTwoCents also tried for the Louqe Ghost in one of his videos, it’s just not the right pump to get the best temps.
 

Goatee

Cable-Tie Ninja
Jun 22, 2018
219
320
the Fractal Design Celcius AIO / DC-LT pump is 3-5C worse than the DDC.

It’s just not the right pump to get the best temps.
I agree, you are trading performance for size. That has already been part of your selection criteria In choosing a DDC pump over a D5.

The kelvin uses a 2400rpm dc-lt. If you want improved performance then using the 3600rpm model would get you that, but still in the same smaller package.

Please don’t take any of this as critical, I like what you are doing, keep it up. Your design would have been great for my current scratch build.

Edit: you could potentially even run two dc-lt pumps in you build space.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: LegendsofMace

Wahaha360

Overhaul
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
835
2,702
The kelvin uses a 2400rpm dc-lt. If you want improved performance then using the 3600rpm model would get you that, but still in the same smaller package.
The 2600rpm has a flow rate of 100l/h, 3600rpm is 120l/h. Some DDC variants will reach 1000l/h, the gap is just too wide.

@optimumtech is doing some tests now, maybe he can add it to his tests. I don’t see DC-LT being good enough for anything outside of a 120 / 140 radiator.

I also bet more WC people are using DDC than DC-LT, the transition is easier for a lot of people.

Edit: you could potentially even run two dc-lt pumps in you build space.
If you have space for two DC-LT, then there are better and more space efficient combos out there, it defeats the purpose of the SFF angle.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NinoPecorino

fabio

King of Cable Management
Gold Supporter
Apr 6, 2016
814
878
The 2600rpm has a flow rate of 100l/h, 3600rpm is 120l/h. Some DDC variants will reach 1000l/h, the gap is just too wide.

@optimumtech is doing some tests now, maybe he can add it to his tests. I don’t see DC-LT being good enough for anything outside of a 120 / 140 radiator.

I also bet more WC people are using DDC than DC-LT, the transition is easier for a lot of people.



If you have space for two DC-LT, then there are better and more space efficient combos out there, kind defeats the purpose of an SFF angle.
Well, is not completely true.

If you are saying that a DC-LT is not enough for a FULL loop, GPU included, then I can agree.

But that a DC-LT is only good for a 120 or 140 rad, sorry, you're wrong!!!

Every AIO, even the "best" like the EVGA CLC 280, or the Corsair 150 360mm are using a slightly weaker pump that the DC-LT.

I've used a DC-LT with an HW Labs Nemesis 240 to cool a 9900K, and was perfect in an SFF!

Of course, IF you can have a DDC in your combo, well, it is a bingo!!

Eager to see your project working man!!!
 

fabio

King of Cable Management
Gold Supporter
Apr 6, 2016
814
878
Which one? GTR, GTS, GTX?

I'm happy to be wrong, b/c DDC is louder.
Is a GTS


Without offset, all core at 4.7Ghz, under Prime for more than 30' the temps are between 80 and 85.

In the DAN, with a 120mm and an average Alphaccol 25mm rad the temp with all core at 4.6GHz under Prime for more than 30' are around 95 degrees.



I will try the same setup with a slim XPSC TX 120mm and an LS120mm of HL, that are more restrictive, but for small loop like these, the DC-LT is enough!

Maybe undervolting a bit can help!

But the noise even if is lower than a DDC, with the fan at 600RPM you can hear the pump, and is annoying anyway!
 

owlery

What's an ITX?
Dec 16, 2018
1
0

A lot of you guys are familiar with the Swiftech Apogee Drive, but it's too tall (~66mm with fittings on one side, ~62mm on the other side) for a lot of the builds.

I have been working with a small shop to get a low profile (~48mm) CPU Block + DDC Pump + Res (maybe) combo that will work for the A4, C4, Ghost S1, M1, Mach One and Skyreach 4 Mini. Here are some pictures of prototype 1.


I'm working on Version 2 now, Intel Mount on top, AMD Mount on bottom.


My problem now is that its already 92x92x24mm thick. Right angle G1/4 fittings will make it 54mm thick :(. I was really hoping to get to 48mm.

Anyone know of 24mm tall 90 degree G1/4 fittings?
Made an account just to like this thread.
Please could you show us the project in action?
I would love to get rid of my apogee, because it conflicts with not even overly tall ram sticks...
Thanks
 

htko89

Trash Compacter
Nov 22, 2017
46
52
www.htko.ca
I'm super interested in this. It would be an instabuy from me if the design is ironed out. Like @owlery above, would love to see more ;)

For me, even if its higher than 48mm it's great because my case allows for 66mm. The outlet placement is so much better however than the apogee drive.

Probably too early to mention: Does this account space for capacitors on motherboards like the Asus z390i? That's one thing that the apogee drive has issues with.
 

Legion

Cable-Tie Ninja
Nov 22, 2017
227
285
I asked @Josh | NFC to do a test, and he posted a video about it - the Fractal Design Celcius AIO / DC-LT pump is 3-5C worse than the DDC.

I suspect it has to do with flow rate and pressure, the DC-LT is not powerful enough on high FPI radiators as well.

JaysTwoCents also tried for the Louqe Ghost in one of his videos, it’s just not the right pump to get the best temps.
The DC-LT is certainly good enough for mid range hardware.
Sadly at the end of the 14nm process, the heat output of higher end components seems to be a bit much for this little pump.
On 7nm tech, this won't be as bad.

I've watercooled since 2004 and in all honesty I really don't like the DDC. I'd take an aircooled build over a DDC loop any day of the week.
Noise in my builds is important to me, I get what you are trying to do with cooling high end hardware in the Mach One and other cases with limited cooler height.
For a lot of Prosumers and Professionals the noise isn't really a concern over enhanced productivity.
 

VegetableStu

Shrink Way Wielder
Aug 18, 2016
1,801
2,472
sorry just to be that guy again: plans for Intel 20xx ILM and SP3/TR4 SAM? (I don't mind the coldplate being smaller than the TR4 IHS area at this point since a lot of people seem to be okay with default AIOs on TR4 ._.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: fabio

SpencerUk

Average Stuffer
Jun 3, 2018
57
29
The DC-LT is certainly good enough for mid range hardware.
Sadly at the end of the 14nm process, the heat output of higher end components seems to be a bit much for this little pump.
On 7nm tech, this won't be as bad.

I've watercooled since 2004 and in all honesty I really don't like the DDC. I'd take an aircooled build over a DDC loop any day of the week.
Noise in my builds is important to me, I get what you are trying to do with cooling high end hardware in the Mach One and other cases with limited cooler height.
For a lot of Prosumers and Professionals the noise isn't really a concern over enhanced productivity.
What's your definition of mid range?
 
  • Like
Reactions: fabio

Wahaha360

Overhaul
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
835
2,702
Is a GTS


Without offset, all core at 4.7Ghz, under Prime for more than 30' the temps are between 80 and 85.

In the DAN, with a 120mm and an average Alphaccol 25mm rad the temp with all core at 4.6GHz under Prime for more than 30' are around 95 degrees.



I will try the same setup with a slim XPSC TX 120mm and an LS120mm of HL, that are more restrictive, but for small loop like these, the DC-LT is enough!
There is something about a water cooling and 85C just freaks people out. I completely understand the laws of physics does apply given the limited cooling surface in SFF.

I'm hoping for a solution on the 9900K & rumored 3600X & 3700X that can get blow 80C, I will be very happy with 79C at game loads (benchmarks unlikely).

Given the circumstances, I will take all the help I can get, DDC's extra flow rate being one of them.


Maybe undervolting a bit can help!
There is something sacrilege about telling people to undervolt. I agree that it makes sense in a lot of ways, but still sacrileges.

But the noise even if is lower than a DDC, with the fan at 600RPM you can hear the pump, and is annoying anyway!
The noise level and the tone are two separate issue. I have 2 EK DDC, I don't like the tone of either.

Any chance you have a Koolance 30FPI 120 Radiator? Curious how it does in your A4 and how it compares to the other rads.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Protools

Wahaha360

Overhaul
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
835
2,702
Probably too early to mention: Does this account space for capacitors on motherboards like the Asus z390i? That's one thing that the apogee drive has issues with.
We are testing this on the Asus Z390 ITX, it's using a standard clearance area of 92x92, so it shouldn't interfere with components.

At the same time, it's not a monoblock, so it's not going to cool other components on the motherboard, so a case with airflow is ideal.
 

fabio

King of Cable Management
Gold Supporter
Apr 6, 2016
814
878
There is something about a water cooling and 85C just freaks people out. I completely understand the laws of physics does apply given the limited cooling surface in SFF.

I'm hoping for a solution on the 9900K & rumored 3600X & 3700X that can get blow 80C, I will be very happy with 79C at game loads (benchmarks unlikely).

Given the circumstances, I will take all the help I can get, DDC's extra flow rate being one of them.




There is something sacrilege about telling people to undervolt. I agree that it makes sense in a lot of ways, but still sacrileges.



The noise level and the tone are two separate issue. I have 2 EK DDC, I don't like the tone of either.

Any chance you have a Koolance 30FPI 120 Radiator? Curious how it does in your A4 and how it compares to the other rads.
Well, in game loads my solution are around the 60 of course!! It’s true the temps under heavy benchmark are 85, but the noise is way lower with those fans that any of the other aircooled heatsink.

For the radiator, actually what i am testing are the best in terms of slim rad. There is a lot of tests on xtremerigs and Thermalbench.

They high fins number is not always an indication of better cooling!

Btw, you should get one of this Eisbaer LT, even the solo version and check the tone!
 

Wahaha360

Overhaul
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
835
2,702
Well, in game loads my solution are around the 60 of course!! It’s true the temps under heavy benchmark are 85, but the noise is way lower with those fans that any of the other aircooled heatsink.

For the radiator, actually what i am testing are the best in terms of slim rad. There is a lot of tests on xtremerigs and Thermalbench.

They high fins number is not always an indication of better cooling!

Btw, you should get one of this Eisbaer LT, even the solo version and check the tone!
@optimumtech tested the XSPC TX240 on 9900K, wasn't good.

I chose the Koolance 30FPI 120 Radiator because it's 120mm wide (no wider like many other 120 radiators). The radiator specs claims 400W cooling potential at Δ25C, and the Noctua Sterrox 120mm fans is ideal for these high FPI radiators.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NinoPecorino