Prototype FormD-P1 (Sidearmd) 280/240AIO Support Case

schn1tt3r

Cable-Tie Ninja
Sep 24, 2018
148
241
I've been tinkering with the idea of a vertical case with 360 radiator for some time and saw this forum and am EXCITED. The 360 would allow a custom loop cooling both CPU and GPU which I think is the direction water cooling systems will be going. I did a layout and it can be done in a 14L case but no such case available now. Hope the P1 or another future version will go this direction.
There are 360 rad cases, they are called mid towers :) You wouldn't want a Ferrari to offroad would you? I don't want an SFF case to fit a 360 rad either.
 
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Vacceo

Trash Compacter
Mar 17, 2020
49
30
360 rad in 14L is not possible, at least not in a user friendly manner.

Also, the case will be about 490mm (19,3 inches) in height. It will start to look like a tower and might need a larger 'base' to be stable. 360 rad is overkill IMHO.
I agree it´d be a bit too tall. Vertical space for a 280 to me sounds good enough, even pushing a bit further than desired as I´d rather be able to use 2 very slim rads (xspc 20mm) than a single 360. I guess that would force the design to be leveled with a nice amount of weight in the lower part but it´d still be unstable.

Half a meter tall ( bit less) sounds quite good on top of a desk. For something like a full tower speaker, that´d be an ATX case.
 

Wintermutee

Efficiency Noob
Jun 26, 2019
7
6
I thought this case came about because of the convoluted answer to whether or not a 240 mm AIO would fit in the T-1? It is true that the project has evolved into 280mm AIO/Threadripper/mDTX, but there are a lot of well built vertical cases with AIO support, there isn't a horizontal case with the same quality as the T-1, AIO support and design language.
 

E.S. Kim

Cable Smoosher
Dec 31, 2019
8
0
360 rad in 14L is not possible, at least not in a user friendly manner.

Also, the case will be about 490mm (19,3 inches) in height. It will start to look like a tower and might need a larger 'base' to be stable. 360 rad is overkill IMHO.
What I had in mind was: (1) place the 360 vertically in the front beginning from the floor - the P1 tower design has a mesh front so it's perfect. Minimum required height is about 410mm considering the EK PE360 radiator length with about 10mm clearance. (2) place an inverted and elongated Velka5 layout behind the radiator - elevating the bottom to the necessary height required for cables to go in the bottom from behind. The depth of Velka5 is 176mm and thickness of the 360 radiator is 65mm with fan. Adding about 10mm of clearance between the two (the Velka case already has about 5mm clearance so total clearance will be 15mm), we have total of 251mm depth. (3) The width of the 360 is 130mm. So width of case can be 138mm (there are cases with this width that house 120mm fan radiators). Total volume is 410 x 251 x 138 = 14.2 litres. (4) Since there is more height available in the Velka5 layout, the power supply can be raised and rotated to allow space for a water pump/small reservoir. Ofcourse these are minimum dimensions and a few mm's more clearance may be required here and there but I think a sub 15 litre case would be realistically possible unless I'm missing something serious. The key to this layout is that the 360 is located in the front allowing it to be placed on the floor and not elevated together with the motherboard since cables can enter from the back. Personnally, I'm planning a system with watercooled 3950X and watercooled 2080Ti for my architect relative and making a 240 radiator custom loop feels somewhat too weak. Comparing with a 280 system, using the concieved 360 layout would preserve the nice tower visuals and desk space advantages while making the system more backpackable as it's thinner, in my opinion. Actually, I'm seriously considering designing and custom ordering the described case so any comments of anticipated problems will be very welcome.
 

E.S. Kim

Cable Smoosher
Dec 31, 2019
8
0
One additional comment/question: would it not be possible to rotate the motherboard so that the back panel is on the back of the case, then fold the riser cable diagonally at 45 degrees behind the motherboard so that the graphics card end of the pci connector is vertical for the graphics card to be installed vertically with the ports on the bottom of the case? I haven't seen any case designs with this layout but it seems very feasible and would necessitate only the display cables to enter from the bottom allowing lower bottom cable clearance and a conveniently exposed back panel in the rear.
 

E.S. Kim

Cable Smoosher
Dec 31, 2019
8
0
Well, I know a bigger radiator doesn't give you much advantage at peak fan rpm's but it will lower temps at least a few degrees and for a given cooling performance, it allows lower fan speeds, and lower noise - that's why we're considering 280 radiators (which have similar performance as 360 radiators) here, as I understand, and the main reason I'm considering a larger than 240 radiator for my next build.
 

BRSxIgnition

Chassis Packer
Mar 15, 2020
16
12
It's great that you're considering a 360 rad for your next build but I really, honestly, 100% doubt that wahaha360 is going to alter the P1 a third time to make what is essentially nearly the side of an AGX case just to support it.

Enough people asked for better 240/280 support in the T1 to get the P1 - i think you're the only person I've seen pushing this hard to get 360 rad support.

It's a classic case of a slippery slope, and it doesn't need to be any bigger than this.
 

BRSxIgnition

Chassis Packer
Mar 15, 2020
16
12
It's great that you're considering a 360 rad for your next build but I really, honestly, 100% doubt that wahaha360 is going to alter the P1 a third time to make what is essentially nearly the side of an AGX case just to support it.

Enough people asked for better 240/280 support in the T1 to get the P1 - i think you're the only person I've seen pushing this hard to get 360 rad support.

It's a classic case of a slippery slope, and it doesn't need to be any bigger than this.
And because I can't edit, I need to quote this to correct the following: ATX*
 

E.S. Kim

Cable Smoosher
Dec 31, 2019
8
0
Well, I guess it may have appeared that I was pushing a little hard for a 360 - my apologies. It's just that I had been thinking a lot about this layout which is a about 410mm tall for some time, but all the comments were based on the assumption that the 360 system will be about half a meter tall - just wanted the facts to be corrected. In any case, even the 280mm version is totally interesting for me - especially coming from wahaha360.
 

Metroversal

Cable-Tie Ninja
Dec 5, 2017
211
465
What I had in mind was: (1) place the 360 vertically in the front beginning from the floor - the P1 tower design has a mesh front so it's perfect. Minimum required height is about 410mm considering the EK PE360 radiator length with about 10mm clearance. (2) place an inverted and elongated Velka5 layout behind the radiator - elevating the bottom to the necessary height required for cables to go in the bottom from behind. The depth of Velka5 is 176mm and thickness of the 360 radiator is 65mm with fan. Adding about 10mm of clearance between the two (the Velka case already has about 5mm clearance so total clearance will be 15mm), we have total of 251mm depth. (3) The width of the 360 is 130mm. So width of case can be 138mm (there are cases with this width that house 120mm fan radiators). Total volume is 410 x 251 x 138 = 14.2 litres. (4) Since there is more height available in the Velka5 layout, the power supply can be raised and rotated to allow space for a water pump/small reservoir. Ofcourse these are minimum dimensions and a few mm's more clearance may be required here and there but I think a sub 15 litre case would be realistically possible unless I'm missing something serious. The key to this layout is that the 360 is located in the front allowing it to be placed on the floor and not elevated together with the motherboard since cables can enter from the back. Personnally, I'm planning a system with watercooled 3950X and watercooled 2080Ti for my architect relative and making a 240 radiator custom loop feels somewhat too weak. Comparing with a 280 system, using the concieved 360 layout would preserve the nice tower visuals and desk space advantages while making the system more backpackable as it's thinner, in my opinion. Actually, I'm seriously considering designing and custom ordering the described case so any comments of anticipated problems will be very welcome.
Well, I guess it may have appeared that I was pushing a little hard for a 360 - my apologies. It's just that I had been thinking a lot about this layout which is a about 410mm tall for some time, but all the comments were based on the assumption that the 360 system will be about half a meter tall - just wanted the facts to be corrected. In any case, even the 280mm version is totally interesting for me - especially coming from wahaha360.
EK PE360 Dimensions: 400 x 130 x 38mm (L x W x H)

You can't just take the rad dimensions and add 10mm of clearance. There are a lot of things to consider, like manufacturing (ie: Velka 5 is made by bending sheet-metal while the P1 should have a CNC frame)

Also, unlike the Velka 5, the P1 won't have exposed cables AND can be flipped upside down [ click here to view picture ]. This means that you need to add extra height for cables.

(H x W x L)
370mm x 232mm x 136mm = 11.67 liters (this refers to previous design dimensions - supports 240 radiators only)
370mm + 120mm = 490mm
490mm x 232mm x 136mm = 15.46 liters

Mind you, I'm not saying it's not possible to have a 360 rad in about 14L, but to achieve that you'll have to sacrifice aesthetics (having exposed cables on top) or functionality (precluding easy access to motherboard I/O).


One additional comment/question: would it not be possible to rotate the motherboard so that the back panel is on the back of the case, then fold the riser cable diagonally at 45 degrees behind the motherboard so that the graphics card end of the pci connector is vertical for the graphics card to be installed vertically with the ports on the bottom of the case? I haven't seen any case designs with this layout but it seems very feasible and would necessitate only the display cables to enter from the bottom allowing lower bottom cable clearance and a conveniently exposed back panel in the rear.
Folding the riser cable 45 degrees is not optimal, it may cause instabilities, performance issues, RMAs, etc. that's why you typically don't see that in any case.
 
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schn1tt3r

Cable-Tie Ninja
Sep 24, 2018
148
241
Well, I know a bigger radiator doesn't give you much advantage at peak fan rpm's but it will lower temps at least a few degrees and for a given cooling performance, it allows lower fan speeds, and lower noise - that's why we're considering 280 radiators (which have similar performance as 360 radiators) here, as I understand, and the main reason I'm considering a larger than 240 radiator for my next build.
You are in the wrong forum if you want case SFF case makers to make it bigger to accomodate a huge radiator for a "few degrees". Most here are more interested in small form factor. There are plenty of big cases out there you can fit 360 degrees.
 

E.S. Kim

Cable Smoosher
Dec 31, 2019
8
0
It's obvious that I have opened up something undesireable here by mentioning a 360 radiator. Please understand that I am not trying to twist everyone's arms to accept a huge 360 system. I do not wish for this discussion to escallate into an argument as I have come here to look for comments and different views. However, a lot of the comments are again based on misconceptions and misunderstandings so I will make one last writing on the subject just so that facts are put straight.

Regarding Metroversal's comments: I have to disagree to the height calculation of 370mm + 120mm = 490mm because the original 370mm height is dictated by GPU height rather than radiator height. Also, I explained that the 360 can be placed from the bottom of the base and not elevated with the motherboard because the radiator is in front and cable entrance is from the back. Therefore, the total height of the case can be limited to whatever is necessary to enclose the radiator - be it 410mm, or 420mm or 430mm. In essence the layout I proposed is the same as the current layout except that the front radiator is changed to a 360mm and placed from the bottom of the case instead of being elevated. Therefore, only the height of the case needs to be changed from the original dimensions. Using the original dimensions given (since I am aware of them now) and a height of 430mm which give about 30mm of clearance, we get a case that is 13.6 litres. The rest of the layout is the same except now there is more vertical space (perhaps enough for a discrete pump/reservoir) in the motherboard/gpu section. So, in my mind this is doable. Cable entrance design can also be the same - therefore this system can be flipped too.

Metroversal's comment concerning folding the riser cable is greatly appreciated. As a systems engineer, your concern was also my concern from the beginning and that is why I was searching for comments. Thank you.

Answering schn1tt3r's and others' similar comments, I think you will agree now that the system I proposed can safely be catagorized as an SFF system, unless I missed something critical and have proposed an impossible system. After building my first tiny SFF workstation, I don't think I will ever go back to the ATX format, so I am in the right forum - please don't dismiss me as an ATX'er.

The reason I even brought up the subject of the 360 system was because it was on my mind for a long time AND because of wahaha360's previous comments that he was modifying to a larger radiator. I thought that instead of making the tower configuration wider and more boxy, a slightly taller and towery looking system using the proposed layout could be more asthetically pleasing.

Again, this is my last comment on the 360 radiator subject which I am writing just to put the facts straight and clear any misunderstandings. Please understand that I am not trying to push and convince in the 360 direction, I was only trying to propose another option to consider. I'm sorry if my previous explanations were lacking and caused the misunderstandings. I very much look forward to the P1 system coming to market ASAP!
 

chyll2

Master of Cramming
Jun 27, 2018
421
357
I guess everyone has made their point clear. At this point, it is up to wahaha360 to decide. iirc, he has a certain design language that he follow (which involve certain ratio).
 

promaty

Caliper Novice
Jun 15, 2019
25
28
@Wahaha360 , Previously you did some excellent testing for T1 to determine which 240 rad is the best:

Could you do something similar for 280 to see if it's a big improvmenet?
 
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Wahaha360

a.k.a W360
Original poster
SFFLAB
NCASE
Feb 23, 2015
1,381
5,834
E.S. Kim, all else equal, 360mm radiator is unlikely to outperform a 280mm radiator in a meaningful way. When you can't get more than 2C of difference, it might as well be human error and or standard variation from components.

* rough estimate of 360 radiator surface area = 120*120*3=43,200 mm
* rough estimate of 280 radiator surface area = 140*140*2=39,200mm
* while this math is not the right way to calculate, but looking at about 10% difference, that difference doesn't translate into meaningful performance gap

240 and 280 are ideal for the proportions and cooling capacity I'm going for.

I only added the 280mm radiator support for Threadripper builds.
 
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