Another topic about clones

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Saici

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Original poster
Mar 25, 2017
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@Bangle you have been warned. We have told you on no uncertain terms that if you have a concern with a product, take it up with the IP holder. We will not tolerate any further behaviour like this, especially considering your propensity to call out the staff of this forum on your perceived unfairness.
So... If I perceive the Apple iBanana to closely resemble the Samsung Banana, I cannot talk about it in this forum?

And what about a nonperceived but factual indifference?
Please elaborate.
 

GuilleAcoustic

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So... If I perceive the Apple iBanana to closely resemble the Samsung Banana, I cannot talk about it in this forum?

And what about a nonperceived but factual indifference?
Please elaborate.
This is a problem that only concern the IP owner and the "supposed clone".

Starting a flame war here won't bring anything positive and won't change the world. This will only lead to sterile debates.
 

fleetfeather

Average Stuffer
Apr 20, 2017
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This is a problem that only concern the IP owner and the "supposed clone".
Sorry, but that's wrong. It affects consumers and the larger SFF community - it encourages reductions in the very creativity, innovation, and differentiation that should be encouraged in the community

I've watched this conversation in silence for weeks/months now, and I feel the staff of this great forum have really done a disservice to the community through their stance on the issue
 

Choidebu

King of Cable Management
Aug 16, 2017
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Sorry, but that's wrong. It affects consumers and the larger SFF community - it encourages reductions in the very creativity, innovation, and differentiation that should be encouraged in the community
We also need to consider the otherwise effect. Flame wars over this controversial matter will also encourage witch hunting, name calling and invites unwanted, uncivil crowd that might not the target crowd this forum is envisioning.

While in rome, do as the romans do. I guess we'll have to wait to hear their stance on this.
 

confusis

John Morrison. Founder and Head writer SFF.N
SFF Workshop
Editorial Staff
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Jun 19, 2015
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All we're trying to do is reduce the incessant trolls who take the situation from "here's some helpful suggestions" to a flame war.

We're working on an official policy on this which will be released in the coming day or two.
 

fleetfeather

Average Stuffer
Apr 20, 2017
80
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We also need to consider the otherwise effect. Flame wars over this controversial matter will also encourage witch hunting, name calling and invites unwanted, uncivil crowd that might not the target crowd this forum is envisioning.

While in rome, do as the romans do. I guess we'll have to wait to hear their stance on this.
Totally agree. I'm not suggesting we have a community militia armed with insults to moderate what should and shouldn't be encouraged in the community.

I think SFF Forum needs to revisit its stance, and publish some guidelines that encourage innovation. As the above post says, it looks like something is happening regarding a policy, so this could all be resolved shortly :)
 
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whatanoob

Caliper Novice
Jun 18, 2018
31
40
I understand that the moderators don't want to flood this thread with discussion about the other case, so I'll leave my opinion on the subject in a spoiler container. Ignore this if you're not here for that.
In my opinion, the way the forum admins have been dealing with this situation has been... weird?

I mean, I would think that if I were to create a post about my new and exciting project, the LAN M4-SFF, surely it would get taken down by the moderators, right? However, if they were to handle it the same way they're handling this situation, it would actually require dondan himself to contact the admins for them to do something about it.
Does it make sense to make him waste his time to shut down a project that blatantly plagiarises his work? How would that conversation even go?

IP Infringement Ticket said:
Dan: "Hi, I would like this project that is stealing some of my potential customers by blatantly plagiarising my work to be taken down."

Admins: "Hi Dan, are you sure you would like this blatant plagiarism of your work to be taken down from the forum?"

Dan: "Uh... yes."

Admins: "Alright, no problem, we'll take care of it. All we need from your is an explanation of how this project infringes on your IP."

Dan: "Maybe just look at it?"

Admins: "..."
Admins: "Yeah ok we'll take it down."
So why isn't LOUQE raising an issue with the admins? (I'm assuming that's the case)

Well, they're kind of busy right now trying to deliver on their own product. Plus, their standing within the community is not the greatest at the moment, to say the least. They would definitely catch some flak if they tried to take the Nouvolo Steck down (It's a bit late for that now anyway, as he's already used this forum to bring a fair bit of attention to his product, so he could probably just move the project somewhere else and still keep most of his future customers), and more flack from this community, is something I really don't think LOUQE wants to deal with, even if their reasons are completely legitimate.

I just think the admins are being unfair with LOUQE by putting the burden of dealing with this situation on them. They basically say "If LOUQE has a problem with this project, they should raise the issue with us.".

My problem is with the "If"... What is that "If" doing there? That "If" implies that there's a world in which LOUQE doesn't have a problem with the Nouvolo Steck... HOW?

Seriously, I must be taking crazy pills because, in my eyes, the Nouvolo Steck steals LOUQE's design so blatantly I can't even begin to imagine how LOUQE would not have a problem with it.

For me it seems that the admins and all the people who don't see a problem with that project are being deliberately obtuse for some reason.

Mod edit: moved from Louqe thread.
 
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greyhound

Cable-Tie Ninja
Apr 21, 2018
148
230
I understand that the moderators don't want to flood this thread with discussion about the other case, so I'll leave my opinion on the subject in a spoiler container. Ignore this if you're not here for that.
In my opinion, the way the forum admins have been dealing with this situation has been... weird?

I mean, I would think that if I were to create a post about my new and exciting project, the LAN M4-SFF, surely it would get taken down by the moderators, right? However, if they were to handle it the same way they're handling this situation, it would actually require dondan himself to contact the admins for them to do something about it.
Does it make sense to make him waste his time to shut down a project that blatantly plagiarises his work? How would that conversation even go?



So why isn't LOUQE raising an issue with the admins? (I'm assuming that's the case)

Well, they're kind of busy right now trying to deliver on their own product. Plus, their standing within the community is not the greatest at the moment, to say the least. They would definitely catch some flak if they tried to take the Nouvolo Steck down (It's a bit late for that now anyway, as he's already used this forum to bring a fair bit of attention to his product, so he could probably just move the project somewhere else and still keep most of his future customers), and more flack from this community, is something I really don't think LOUQE wants to deal with, even if their reasons are completely legitimate.

I just think the admins are being unfair with LOUQE by putting the burden of dealing with this situation on them. They basically say "If LOUQE has a problem with this project, they should raise the issue with us.".

My problem is with the "If"... What is that "If" doing there? That "If" implies that there's a world in which LOUQE doesn't have a problem with the Nouvolo Steck... HOW?

Seriously, I must be taking crazy pills because, in my eyes, the Nouvolo Steck steals LOUQE's design so blatantly I can't even begin to imagine how LOUQE would not have a problem with it.

For me it seems that the admins and all the people who don't see a problem with that project are being deliberately obtuse for some reason.
if louqe can not be bothered with that i don't understand why should we.
they do have internet and access to this website and to the slack where that case has already been posted.
if they have a problem with that case but they are keeping it quiet because they do not want to deal with the fact that they went radio silent on this comunity, why should we be bothered?
 

fleetfeather

Average Stuffer
Apr 20, 2017
80
68
if louqe can not be bothered with that i don't understand why should we.
they do have internet and access to this website and to the slack where that case has already been posted.
if they have a problem with that case but they are keeping it quiet because they do not want to deal with the fact that they went radio silent on this comunity, why should we be bothered?
This is an understandable first stance to this situation, but let me illustrate why we should be bothered with it using a hypothetical example:

  • Designer A comes up with a design that is successful in the community. It proves a popular seller, and while the innovation and prototyping phases added to the overall cost to the consumer, the price is seen as reasonable by most people.

  • Designer B sees the design from Designer A, and thinks they can bring a similar design to market with a reduced cost due to different manufacturing processes and/or materials. Designer B's intent is totally reasonable: to make a case with a popular layout, but at a more accessible price to the consumer. The design sells well.

  • Designer C sees the success of Designer A and B's cases, and decides to jump on board with a similar design. Designer C sets a similar retail price as Designer A (who has finished their manufacturing run some time ago now), given that it sold at that price previously and SFF enthusiasts have been asking for a rerun for a while now. The design is roughly the same, but the cost price is brought down by using cheaper manufacturing processes and next-to-no prototyping costs. Designer C profits greatly from the case, and offers limited support for their chassis as they aren't particularly invested in the product. Some customers get burnt by the intent of Designer C's money grab, and future support for projects is met with further scrutiny.

In this example, we have three versions of a functionally cloned case, that has led to a saturation of the design in the market; scalping of popular designs for profit; and a reduction in faith in future projects on the SFF Forum. Furthermore, in the same time period that several new designs could have been conceptualised and brought to production, we've had three near identical concepts fill the CC&P sub-forum.
 

Flyingpepper

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Jan 8, 2018
107
191
I appreciate this space to have the discussion, so thank you. :D

_______________________________________

if louqe can not be bothered with that i don't understand why should we.

they do have internet and access to this website and to the slack where that case has already been posted.

if they have a problem with that case but they are keeping it quiet because they do not want to deal with the fact that they went radio silent on this comunity, why should we be bothered?

Louqe is clearly insanely busy at the moment. Not to mention it wouldn’t exactly look great for them to publicly respond to this.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with clearly pointing that that the Nouvolo Steck has obvious design influence—to put it incredibly lightly—from the Louqe Ghost S1. Obviously, no one should be starting flame wars, doxxing, etc. But trying to silence a basic discussion on the matter is a bad move.

If someone has the gall to essentially copy an already popular project on here, then they need to be adult enough to deal with people calling them out for what’s obvious.

_______________________________________

I understand that the moderators don't want to flood this thread with discussion about the other case, so I'll leave my opinion on the subject in a spoiler container. Ignore this if you're not here for that.

In my opinion, the way the forum admins have been dealing with this situation has been... weird?



I mean, I would think that if I were to create a post about my new and exciting project, the LAN M4-SFF, surely it would get taken down by the moderators, right? However, if they were to handle it the same way they're handling this situation, it would actually require dondan himself to contact the admins for them to do something about it.

Does it make sense to make him waste his time to shut down a project that blatantly plagiarises his work? How would that conversation even go?







So why isn't LOUQE raising an issue with the admins? (I'm assuming that's the case)



Well, they're kind of busy right now trying to deliver on their own product. Plus, their standing within the community is not the greatest at the moment, to say the least. They would definitely catch some flak if they tried to take the Nouvolo Steck down (It's a bit late for that now anyway, as he's already used this forum to bring a fair bit of attention to his product, so he could probably just move the project somewhere else and still keep most of his future customers), and more flack from this community, is something I really don't think LOUQE wants to deal with, even if their reasons are completely legitimate.



I just think the admins are being unfair with LOUQE by putting the burden of dealing with this situation on them. They basically say "If LOUQE has a problem with this project, they should raise the issue with us.".



My problem is with the "If"... What is that "If" doing there? That "If" implies that there's a world in which LOUQE doesn't have a problem with the Nouvolo Steck... HOW?



Seriously, I must be taking crazy pills because, in my eyes, the Nouvolo Steck steals LOUQE's design so blatantly I can't even begin to imagine how LOUQE would not have a problem with it.



For me it seems that the admins and all the people who don't see a problem with that project are being deliberately obtuse for some reason.



Mod edit: moved from Louqe thread.

You absolutely hit the nail in the head. Your “LAN M4-SFF” mock-up is absolutely on point. That’s essentially the difference between the two cases. Nouvolo has a post about interior changes, which is not the concern here.

_______________________________________


The minute exterior differences are as follows:

1. Power LED has been moved from above power button to bellow.
2. No ragtag on top.
3. “Indents” on the top hat .(I’m guessing to place your fingers to remove, since there’s no rag tag.)
4. Removable feet. (Moot point since they’re removable and Louqe listed removable feet as an add-on and even has renderings of them.)

From Louqe add-on PDF here:


_______________________________________


@Thehack previously eloquently stated how you can use a similar internal layout, because yes, there are only so many ways to lay out internal components to minimize volume. However, that does not mean the exterior has to be a 99.9% clone to another design.

The C4 and SM550:



Clearly these two cases utilize entirely different design languages. There would be absolutely no way to mistake the two for each other, despite using similar interior layouts.

_______________________________________


Moreover, Nouvolo is trying to use this Cooler Master as prior art for stackable cases:



No one is trying to say that Louqe is the only company that can have an expandable PC case. Trying to use this Cooler Master as a defense is obtuse at best and intentionally misleading at worst. Surely they can acknowledge that the stackable expansion system is the least of the worries here.

_______________________________________


Even Nouvolo themselves is using Louqe Ghost S1 photos to try to figure out water-cooling in their own case:

I will add another option for 90mm height stack unit. Should be ok when launch in KS, backers pick which size they want. I plan to include 1 stack as a bundle. Will officially add this to the specification

But I have a question, can anyone suggest how I should accommodate for the reservoir and pump? 85mm rad is usually not AIO, which means that water block/pump/reservoir are separate? Space is certainly tight ;)

Where's the pump for this?


Something like this?

Nouvolo themselves again directly compared their case to Louqe by saying:

As you can see with "other" designs in the forum, I honestly think they have pushed the limit too far in their design vs actual production. I am not surprised if they ran into problems in actual production.
(emphasis mine)

Another reference to Louqe:

- L12S
- Yes, the vent holes are same for top and sides, design theme is about symmetry and for aesthetics. Also I try to avoid having the looks being to close to that of our Swedish friends.
(emphasis mine)



If Nouvolo themselves repeatedly compare their own product to Louqe's, then they acknowledge that it's incredibly derivative of the Ghost S1. There would be zero reason to slyly call out Louqe if they didn't know their product was a clone and had an overlapping customer base of those who either ordered a Ghost S1 or were interested in one.

_______________________________________


Here's a collection of Louqe Ghost S1 and Nouvolo Steck photos mixed up together:













Now tell me it isn't obvious.

_______________________________________


The lack of concern from SFF staff so far about this is honestly disheartening. Perhaps that will change with the statement they release. I don't see why anyone would bother working their ass off designing their own case only for someone else to come on the same forum and steal your entire exterior design with lazy changes.

I'm tired of reading about how "the market" should design if this is ok. That's bs. SFF can and should take a clear position that this kind of practice is unacceptable. At least make design thieves sling their product somewhere else.

Stop defending design theft and instead support the creators on this platform that actually contribute new ideas and products to the SFF community.

Frankly, I'm surprised I'm spending the time writing this as I've been waiting for my Ghost S1 since their original launch over a year and a half ago. But as a design professional myself, this really upsets me. Louqe is far from perfect—and their communication is honestly awful at times—but at least their design isn't stolen.
 
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Thehack

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I've already said my piece in product thread but I'd like to add this:

"Flame War" according to urban dictionary:

A flame war is a heated argument between two individuals, that results in those involved posting personal attacks on each other during or instead of debating the topic at hand.

Seriously discussing a topic is not a flame war. While the debate can get serious, I have yet to seen a forum member stoop to name-calling or witch hunting, which are the two main components of a flame war. This does say a lot about the quality of our forum members.

Calling our discussion a flame war is using the term quite liberally. There are many professionals here and having a frank and serious discussion is actually a viable thing.
 

Choidebu

King of Cable Management
Aug 16, 2017
928
909
IMO clones have their place. But I have to stress that calling them clones aren't such a bad thing. Search the word here and you'll find 'dan a4 clone', 'ncase clone', etc. Why is this any different? It can be a ghost clone too fwiw.

But asking to close the thread or take action against the perpetrator, now that is censorship in its finest. This is not government. If the 'victim' of such clone demands it, then we can all agree that such action should be taken, it's their right. Or do we want to be an sjw instead?

Now removing posts, bar any underlying violations of written rule, is also censorship. Thing is I do not know what was being said, only that some posts are deleted or edited. It could pretty well be violating other rule, not just calling something a clone. If it was banned just because of it, I'd agree that it is wrong.

But let's take a step back to my second point: why would one post in the product thread itself calling out (rather harshly, I may add) that it is a clone? Is it not to incite defensive response from the perpetrator? What's the purpose? Think about this for a minute then you'll realize, realistically nothing good can come out out of it. What, were you expecting the OP will take shame and leave? To reflect and mend his ways?

Now to go back to my first point: clones are good. Needed, even. After living in both developed (read: first world) and developing (read: third world) countries I can say for sure now that there is such thing as first world problems.

I'm a proud owner of an S4 MINI and this is the first case in my life that I bought for more than 40$. I grew up with stamped 1 mm steel cases with plastic fascia, all same atx layout, with paint so thin if you scratch the panel the surface jolts you everytime you touch the area. And it served its purpose. For more than two decades.

So I'd say clones banzai - doesn't stop me for buying a real case when I can afford it.
 

newtothegame

Caliper Novice
Sep 1, 2018
29
37
I haven't been here long enough to thoroughly discuss the issue but, of all the topics I've read so far, I can't say I haven't seen any flamewars o trollish comments amongst them. Please do correct me if I'm wrong though.

Nonetheless, I think having a place to discuss certain community-related issues (being this topic or any other) can benefit the sff forums more than just trying to limit certain ideas/opinions from being discussed. After all, I'd say that most of us here are wise enough to spend our precious time contributing and debating rather than being purposefully obnoxious.

Regarding the Steck alleged plagiarism and the community response, I'd argue that criticism in this case is not only understandable but also a bit of a testament to the values this community holds. Wether or not Louqe cares about it, I think it's nice that the contributors here do care about it enough to publicly comment on the matter. Why wouldn't they feel entitled to, when a cuestionable derivative product is certainly entitled enough to promote their project and build a customer base among them? Maybe their opinions can be privately directed towards the project's designer but then what would be the point of these forums? Turning the whole thing into a webshop would serve the same purpose I guess. I don't know, I might be wrong here, but I can imagine that when building a community based on industrial design, innovation and creativity, the last thing you would want to incentivise is derivation and private conversations.
 

Thehack

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Mar 6, 2016
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IMO clones have their place. But I have to stress that calling them clones aren't such a bad thing. Search the word here and you'll find 'dan a4 clone', 'ncase clone', etc. Why is this any different? It can be a ghost clone too fwiw.

But asking to close the thread or take action against the perpetrator, now that is censorship in its finest. This is not government. If the 'victim' of such clone demands it, then we can all agree that such action should be taken, it's their right. Or do we want to be an sjw instead?

Now removing posts, bar any underlying violations of written rule, is also censorship. Thing is I do not know what was being said, only that some posts are deleted or edited. It could pretty well be violating other rule, not just calling something a clone. If it was banned just because of it, I'd agree that it is wrong.

But let's take a step back to my second point: why would one post in the product thread itself calling out (rather harshly, I may add) that it is a clone? Is it not to incite defensive response from the perpetrator? What's the purpose? Think about this for a minute then you'll realize, realistically nothing good can come out out of it. What, were you expecting the OP will take shame and leave? To reflect and mend his ways?

Now to go back to my first point: clones are good. Needed, even. After living in both developed (read: first world) and developing (read: third world) countries I can say for sure now that there is such thing as first world problems.

I'm a proud owner of an S4 MINI and this is the first case in my life that I bought for more than 40$. I grew up with stamped 1 mm steel cases with plastic fascia, all same atx layout, with paint so thin if you scratch the panel the surface jolts you everytime you touch the area. And it served its purpose. For more than two decades.

So I'd say clones banzai - doesn't stop me for buying a real case when I can afford it.
Realize that this is a private forum with moderation. There is a lot of "censorship" here which I am fine with, It keeps out the drivel and the spam.

We use the term "clone" quite loosely here in these forums. There are many similar, but distinctive design that we still call clones and then there are actual clones like the Kolink Rocket.

We aren't trying to "incite a defensive response." We're trying to honestly discuss the design likeness of a product to ensure that there is healthy innovation and broad use of creativity. I would use the forum as a way to discuss design direction and ensure that my product is distinctive from other products. If someone remarked to me that my case looks very much like NCASE, I would question my design choices and attempt to find a design language that is elegant yet distinct.

While "cloning" can be good in some situations, there are situations where it doesn't make sense. For example functional or mechanical designs should be "cloned" and become standard industry practice. However, where it doesn't make sense is the use of cloning aesthetics and the look and feel of a product. Designers use this forum as a way to gauge market feasibility, illicit user feedback, and develop products.

It would be detrimental to the development of new products and the health of the community if we allow the explicit use of our forum as a platform for design copying.

I have been ever more wary of design copying since this STECK issue and I feel like not releasing information and design until I'm at the prototype phase is the safe response at minium. If your case take more than 6 months from inception to shipping, I'd be incredibly wary of other companies using the forum to copy you, especially once you're committed and proven market feasibility.
 
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greyhound

Cable-Tie Ninja
Apr 21, 2018
148
230
Louqe is clearly insanely busy at the moment. Not to mention it wouldn’t exactly look great for them to publicly respond to this.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with clearly pointing that that the Nouvolo Steck has obvious design influence—to put it incredibly lightly—from the Louqe Ghost S1. Obviously, no one should be starting flame wars, doxxing, etc. But trying to silence a basic discussion on the matter is a bad move.

If someone has the gall to essentially copy an already popular project on here, then they need to be adult enough to deal with people calling them out for what’s obvious.

_______________________________________
i'm so tired with this apologetic nonsense. It is 2018, it takes 1 min to send a PM. They aren't chinese workers living in a factory working 14hours a day in the middle of nowhere.

if they can't be bothered with that it means that to them it isn't important enough.

so the mods are right to keep that case in their forum, and btw you don't even know if louqe isn't happy with that as they have never said anything about that.
 

Flyingpepper

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Jan 8, 2018
107
191
i'm so tired with this apologetic nonsense. It is 2018, it takes 1 min to send a PM. They aren't chinese workers living in a factory working 14hours a day in the middle of nowhere.

if they can't be bothered with that it means that to them it isn't important enough.

so the mods are right to keep that case in their forum, and btw you don't even know if louqe isn't happy with that as they have never said anything about that.
It doesn’t even matter if Louqe is happy or unhappy with it given how unabashed the stolen design is.

It sets an awful precedent for other creators to be worried about wasting time and money to design, get feedback, ensure product viability, et cetera — only to have someone else swoop in and profit from your own labor.
 

greyhound

Cable-Tie Ninja
Apr 21, 2018
148
230
It doesn’t even matter if Louqe is happy or unhappy with it given how unabashed the stolen design is.

It sets an awful precedent for other creators to be worried about wasting time and money to design, get feedback, ensure product viability, et cetera — only to have someone else swoop in and profit from your own labor.
louqe made their blue print pubblic for anyone to download, how do you know that they have issues with others using that design?

it doesn't set any precedent as people will still be able to ask for copies of their projects to be taken down even if louqe doesn't
 

Flyingpepper

SFF Lingo Aficionado
Jan 8, 2018
107
191
louqe made their blue print pubblic for anyone to download, how do you know that they have issues with others using that design?

it doesn't set any precedent as people will still be able to ask for copies of their projects to be taken down even if louqe doesn't
Louqe made a model for the public so people could more accurately plans builds, modifications, and develop an ecosystem for the Ghost S1 platform. Such as Mods by Faggan working on a custom reservoir for the Ghost S1.


Edit:

Direct from the download page:

Terms of use
The 3D model can be used by individuals for any personal use and development. All commercial use of the 3D models is strictly prohibited without the consensus of LOUQE AB.
 
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greyhound

Cable-Tie Ninja
Apr 21, 2018
148
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Louqe made a model for the public so people could more accurately plans builds, modifications, and develop an ecosystem for the Ghost S1 platform. Such as Mods by Faggan working on a custom reservoir for the Ghost S1.


Edit:

Direct from the download page:
yes but again , that case doesn't use that file...
unless they come up with a formal complain there isn't any point on others to do that.

you can state what you think but not ask for that case to be removed
 
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