• Hey Guest, save 20% on our entire merchandise range during the month of December! Use promo code MAKEITSMOL at Our Merchandise Store!

News A wild ATX12VO motherboard appears




VIVA LA REVOLUCIÓN !
(of the 10-pin replacing 24-pin)

Though it compensates by having an additional 6-pin PCIe power header... The smaller 4-pin headers read SATA_PWR_CON1 and 2.
Now, bring it to SFF please ! Thanks ASRock again for being the first with SFF-friendly features in the mainstream market !
 

paulesko

Master of Cramming
Jul 31, 2019
398
301
I don´t know... The idea is very good, an has a lot of potential, but there are 24 pins still in there, I don´t get why
 

Phuncz

Lord of the Boards
Original poster
SFFn Staff
Gold Supporter
May 9, 2015
5,496
4,748
The two 4-pin connectors are outputs, not inputs. So these don't come from the PSU. The extra 6-pin PCIe is most likely because it has so many PCIe slots, each having to supply power.
 

ExplodingWaffle101

SFF Lingo Aficionado
May 11, 2018
129
82
man i love how much smaller this looks for itx, moreso without the extra pcie power. for some reason i feel like it would allow board vendors more freedom in where they put it? which i think is a good thing
 

Phuncz

Lord of the Boards
Original poster
SFFn Staff
Gold Supporter
May 9, 2015
5,496
4,748
for some reason i feel like it would allow board vendors more freedom in where they put it? which i think is a good thing
Most certainly. Maybe even allow 4 DIMM slots on mITX. Or a lot of SATA. Or all I/O headers at the front (right on the picture).
 
  • Like
Reactions: cmyk78

max31092

Average Stuffer
Mar 1, 2020
76
45
I still don't get the hype for 12V-ATX.

At least while still using internal power supplies.

You still need 5V and often 3,3V on the mainboard. Producing those rails still needs space. And you need output connectors for drives.
I don't think you'll save much space on the mainboard side. You probably even lose space for other features depending on the implementation.

The only good I can see is the use of a smaller ATX cable.

Additionally vendors will most likely charge you for the new components.
And I honestly don't think SFX power supplies will get cheaper.
 

paulesko

Master of Cramming
Jul 31, 2019
398
301
I still don't get the hype for 12V-ATX.

At least while still using internal power supplies.

You still need 5V and often 3,3V on the mainboard. Producing those rails still needs space. And you need output connectors for drives.
I don't think you'll save much space on the mainboard side. You probably even lose space for other features depending on the implementation.

The only good I can see is the use of a smaller ATX cable.

Additionally vendors will most likely charge you for the new components.
And I honestly don't think SFX power supplies will get cheaper.

Well, 5 and 3.3v can be obtanined from a size of a pico psu, which can perfectly be a daughter board, not ocuppying space on the mainboard. And also, with new gan-fet designs, one can make pretty tiny power supplies, like this tdk-lambda 720 w 12v with on-off actuator, measuring 160*100*13.4 mm.


I think it´s a good way of simplifying things
 
Last edited:

max31092

Average Stuffer
Mar 1, 2020
76
45
If you daughterboard the regulators off the mainboard, why not just offboard currently lacking features? No need for a new supply architecture to accomodate new features.

And if those chips are really better than the current regulators why don't manufacturers already use them? SFX supplies have a lot more components and that might be for better voltage regulation than on a single chip.
If theay don't actually need those, why not just make them smaller and retain the current offerings.

I still see the simplification of using less cables, but you ultimately only change where the 3,3V and 5V are coming from. If you can do it on only need a small space on a motherboard you can do it as small on a PSU as well.
And especially for ITX I don't know why we should further complicate higly packed parts as the MB.
 

paulesko

Master of Cramming
Jul 31, 2019
398
301
I wrote it badly. I wanted to say that 3.3 and 5v you can obtain them from a board a size of a pico psu, which is very small.

Also the requirements for those two lines are much lower nowadays than 8 or 14 years before. For example, I look at the specifications of a sf750 and both 3.3 and 5v lines are good up to 130w. Who needs that nowadays? I bet very few people, that´s why this new standard is also a good idea, it relocates the 3.3 and 5v to the mainboard, and also in the process you allow the mainboard manufacturer to give those components the power they really need like in the case of fan headers.

If a mini itx motherboard has two sata ports (soon to disappear, I guess) and two nvme dirive port. you don´t need by any means 130w on the 3.3 and 5v rails. So you let the motherboard manufacturer give dimension to that acording to the connectivity and the use of the board. In ITX you dont need that much wattage. In a E-ATX board this could be a different case.

I really don´t see anything wrong in the new standard, and it´s something DIY market and SFFers has been looking for for many years!
 

Analogue Blacksheep

King of Cable Management
Bronze Supporter
Dec 2, 2018
724
532
Personally, I hope this means smaller PSU's. I still think the perfect PSU design would be one that would be the same dimensions as a 2.5 drive. I would like to say 7mm, but the U.2 15mm size would be more realistic. You could just stick it in a drive cage.
 

smitty2k1

King of Cable Management
Dec 3, 2016
922
456
Anandtech has a decent write-up: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1576...otherboard-the-asrock-z490-phantom-gaming-4sr

I think 12v only is great moving forward, but I don't quite understand this from the write-up:

The main power comes from the first 10-pin connector, which provides up to 288 W. For small and medium sized motherboards, this should be the only power that is needed.

Additional power for high-end motherboards that need it come from a 6-pin connector, which can provide another 288W.

Note that the 8-pin 12V CPU power is still required for the processor – the 10 pin (and 6-pin) here give power to the components on board, and the PCIe slots.

So every motherboard has to have the 10-pin connector, which can supply 288W. However, you also must have an additional 8-pin CPU power connector? That seems crazy to me. 288W through the board should be sufficient considering any high end GPU will get it's power through dedicated power cables and not through the 75W PCIe lane.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phuncz

ExplodingWaffle101

SFF Lingo Aficionado
May 11, 2018
129
82
Anandtech has a decent write-up: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1576...otherboard-the-asrock-z490-phantom-gaming-4sr

I think 12v only is great moving forward, but I don't quite understand this from the write-up:



So every motherboard has to have the 10-pin connector, which can supply 288W. However, you also must have an additional 8-pin CPU power connector? That seems crazy to me. 288W through the board should be sufficient considering any high end GPU will get it's power through dedicated power cables and not through the 75W PCIe lane.
If I remember my buildzoid correctly, we barely need more than an extra 4 pin as it is (dont quote me on that). also, isnt EPS and ATX power seperate on (some? all?) motherboards? maybe im misremembering
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phuncz

Choidebu

"Banned"
Aug 16, 2017
1,196
1,196
However, you also must have an additional 8-pin CPU power connector?

EPS 8-pin along with 24-pin ATX have been consumer motherboard standard for at least 15 years.

Do you mean we should condense 8+24 to mere 10 pin?

I think I read somewhere those pins are rated 40-50W each, including cases where half of it fails to work.

Budgeting 50 to 100W for onboard components, that's 2 pins (4 with its corresponding GND). Peripherals like fans pump drives etc: another 100W? So that took 8 pins out of 10.

We definitely still need that EPS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ikjadoon

ikjadoon

Chassis Packer
Dec 23, 2017
17
11
Anandtech has a decent write-up: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1576...otherboard-the-asrock-z490-phantom-gaming-4sr

I think 12v only is great moving forward, but I don't quite understand this from the write-up:

So every motherboard has to have the 10-pin connector, which can supply 288W. However, you also must have an additional 8-pin CPU power connector? That seems crazy to me. 288W through the board should be sufficient considering any high end GPU will get it's power through dedicated power cables and not through the 75W PCIe lane.

As Choidebu wrote, the 8-pin EPS is for CPUs. ATX12VO is a motherboard/PSU specification and doesn't deal with CPUs. If we want lower CPU draw, that's an Intel/AMD issue. Most motherboards stay with the 8-pin and will continue to because today the mainstream CPU sockets must 10C/20T CPUs (a net win, IMO).

Interestingly, while 3.3V and 5V are still required, mITX will be the biggest beneficiary because of only one PCIe slot: by the PCIe specification, each PCIe slot must supply 3A of 3.3V (9.9 W). So, an average ATX motherboard with ~5 slots will still need to supply 49.5 watts of 3.3V under the new ATX12VO. mITX gets away with just 9.9 W!

Likewise, Anandtech is quoting the upper bound of the 10-pin connector; it actually ranges 216 W (6A) to 288 W (8A). So, where does all the power go? The motherboard's internal consumption is relatively very low (i.e,. the Z490 chipset die has a tiny 6 W TDP); it's the external device power requirements that make a ~200 W "quota" disappear pretty quickly.
  • all PCIe slots (66 W from 12V & 9.5 W from 3.3V)
  • all the rear IO logic & power output (e.g., each USB 3.0 port requires a minimum 4.5 W)
  • all the fans (e.g., each fan header is 12 W to 24 W)
  • nominally one to two SATA devices (e.g., I estimate 5 to 10 W is reserved per SATA port)
A typical mITX motherboard with two SATA ports (7.5 W avg), six USB 3.0 ports internally and externally (4.5 W), one PCIe slot (75 W), and two fan headers (15 W avg) = a standard 10-pin ATX12VO mini-ITX needs to reserve 147 watts minimum just for external devices you might connect. CPUs will need much more.

Add in M.2 slots (5 to 10 W), AIO-pump fan headers (18 to 24 W), any Thunderbolt 3 ports (15 W minimum), an RGB LED header (15 W to 36 W), etc. = the 10-pin is as small as they can go. FWIW, any good motherboard manual will spell out its power output reservations, i.e., see this ASRock Z390 motherboard.

Overall, ATX12VO is a major positive change, relative to the snail's pace of ATX development over the past 25 years (ATX was introduced in 1995).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phuncz and Choidebu

ikjadoon

Chassis Packer
Dec 23, 2017
17
11
I'm not sure how to edit posts; the 216 W to 288 W range is noted in the ATX12VO specification on page 30.



Though, as Intel mentions, smaller/medium-size boards could do away with the EPS 8-pin: we can hope for some ultra-low-power mITX boards! I do admit not all users need to reserve 100 W for CPU boost power. It's maybe just whether that is a marketable niche for motherboard manufacturers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phuncz

ermac318

King of Cable Management
Mar 10, 2019
655
510
ATX12VO should allow boards without EPS connectors for smaller TDP CPUs. It's entirely possible we could see ITX boards with only the ATX12VO connector. This is because the regular 24-pin connector could only safely supply ~150W of power over 12V, which isn't generally enough for a PCIe device like a GPU (75W potentially from the socket) plus a 100W CPU (which as we know Intel Coffee Lake CPUs can burst above 200W).

Lets say you were building an ITX board that only supported 65W TDP CPUs. You could power that board entirely using ATX12VO. But lets say you were making a Threadripper ATX Board. Clearly you'd need both the EPS 4+4 connector (possibly two) and the ATX12VO connector.

I don't expect to see many boards without EPS outside of specialized boards, just because it'll be safer for motherboard manufacturers to just include it. But on very space constrained boards, it could be useful. If you had a board which only accepted AMD APUs, you could safely assume the total package power is under a certain limit and forgo the EPS.

The weird thing is this AsRock board also including a PCIe 6-pin on the board for additional board power. This seems completely redundant, because the ATX12VO provides more power than the ATX 24-pin does, and yet only the craziest quad-SLI boards every included PCIe or Molex connectors on the board for added board power.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phuncz