A case for the future

[Shahmatt]

I'm thinking about retiring my old i3-2100 based PC and purchasing an APU when it is released hopefully later this year.

I would like to build a PC with the following stuffed inside:

APU + Asrock AB350 itx (or similar) board
8GB of RAM
m.2 NVMe SSD - either a Samsung 960 Evo or Adata XPG-sx8000
2x2.5" HDD setup in RAID 1
PicoPSU 160XT coupled with a AC-DC adapter (just discovered these yesterday and it blows the mind)

All installed in a M350 box. I have the following questions:

1. I understand that the M350 can accommodate 2x2.5" drives if you purchase a second bracket. But looking at images it beats me how it can be done. Is the compromise to ventilation significant?

2. Choosing a case was quite an adventure. I decided ITX would be nice to begin with, found the Coolermaster Elite 130 and gradually "evolved" (with ever increasing apprehension and exhilaration) to the Phantec Evolv Enthoo, NCase M1, Dan A4, Antec ISK310-150, Inwin Chopin, Antec ISK110 Vesa U3 and finally, after discovering picoPSUs, the M350.

The liberating aspect of small cases is intoxicating, but my concern is this: I'm a little uncomfortable by the fact that the PCI express slot is unusable in this case (and many of these other small cases). Even if I do not have need for it a part of me wishes it was available just in case - I mean, isn't that the point of building your own, to have expand-ability?.

If I decide to use the slot for the purposes of, say, a PCI-ex based SSD would that be possible in the M350 via riser cable? (again, the concept of a PCI-ex riser is also totally new to me and I have no idea what's possible and what's not).

Would it be a better idea to purchase the Antec ISK310-150 instead due to the half-height expansion slot being available? Could I remove the existing PSU and replace it with a picoPSU to obtain more depth - i.e. half height but two slots?

 

[jtd871]

Welcome to the world of picking your SFF build.

Which case you go with should depend on what you want to use it for for the near-term. I'd go with the best "smallness" value for the money if you are not completely decided. That way you'll probably end up with a good enough case, without having spent a lot of money. If you feel you want to, you can go with something else down the road once you have some experience and splurge a bit for the exact experience you want.

For example, my wife and I are in our third house. After living in three homes, we know what features work best for us, and what features we want to avoid. Same thing for cases (although much less expensive).

 

[Shahmatt]

Welcome to the world of picking your SFF build.

Which case you go with should depend on what you want to use it for for the near-term. I'd go with the best "smallness" value for the money if you are not completely decided. That way you'll probably end up with a good enough case, without having spent a lot of money. If you feel you want to, you can go with something else down the road once you have some experience and splurge a bit for the exact experience you want.

Thanks for the welcome.

Some background: I have a small family. We have lived abroad for some years now because of my work. But in the next couple of years, as my kid gets older, we intend to return to our home country and settle down.

My immediate needs would be somewhat specific then:
1. My new build would need to be small - so that I can pack it in luggage when traveling back eventually, and also I would like to have access to full computing power when traveling within my home country when visiting my wife's (which I expect I'll do regularly). I'll be setting up workstations at each location which will have everything I need but the PC box. I will need to have good WIFI a/c and BT.

2. In my home country we have power cuts occasionally and sometimes an unreliable supply - a good PSU is then necessary and maybe even a UPS.

3. Though I expect to return to this country on occasion for business purposes, in general after migrating hardware availability would be limited compared to what I have access to now. A build somewhat future proof would be best.

Since my first message I've also stumbled upon the micro STX form factor. It looks really interesting but I had my heart set on a Ryzen CPU for its better value. However the possibility of having such a feature rich board packed into such a small space makes me think twice.

Mini-box seems to sell UPS devices that are internally installed, though I could be misinterpreting the purpose of these devices - my knowledge of computer hardware is pretty slim. Link here: http://www.mini-box.com/micro-UPS-load-sharing
The OpenUPS2 seems interesting.
I can't seem to find any images of these devices in operation. But I hope that this might be a solution to my unreliable power supply problem:

So far the M350 + PicoPSU-150-XT - 150w (12V/12.5A) AC-DC Adapter seems like the best candidate. But until I know what CPU and mobo I go with I will just continue to research.

Any comments are most welcome.

 

[jtd871]

Do you want a discrete GPU or other add-in card? if yes, then the S4 Mini, Zaber Sentry, DAN A4 or Lazer3D LZ7 could be good solutions.
Otherwise, there are smaller cases (Logic Supply, Streacom, Antec) that will fit an APU build while remaining relatively portable. Some even come with PSUs (Antec ISK series at least has SKUs that include a PSU). If you want to build in a UPS or other power supply, you may need more room.

Most current mITX motherboards either come with or can be fitted with compact wifi/BT cards that connect on the motherboard and permit you to use external antennas that should be removeable for transport. You shouldn't have a big problem with these.

I don't think future-proofing because of perceived lack of access to hardware options in the possible future is a smart move. Worldwide shipping may not be cheap, but it's only going to get better. And you should be able to purchase hardware on the internet relatively painlessly if there is something that you absolutely must have.

Most brand-name PSUs will function just fine. Read reviews and ask questions of mfgr reps if you want to be sure. Reviewers like Tom's Hardware and Anandtech do a pretty good job verifying holdup times and comparing them to the ATX specification.

 

[10410039]

If you're concerned about the drive bracket blocking the pcie slot on the M350, you may want to check the L4 by Lone Industries. That case have space for dual slot-low profile pcie device without affecting drive space, and best of all it's developed in this forum.

Go check around the Custom Cases & Projects section.

 

[Shahmatt]

I don't think future-proofing because of perceived lack of access to hardware options in the possible future is a smart move. Worldwide shipping may not be cheap, but it's only going to get better. And you should be able to purchase hardware on the internet relatively painlessly if there is something that you absolutely must have.

Most brand-name PSUs will function just fine. Read reviews and ask questions of mfgr reps if you want to be sure. Reviewers like Tom's Hardware and Anandtech do a pretty good job verifying holdup times and comparing them to the ATX specification.

Well it's not so much the fact that I can't access products at all, but rather the shipping times, trouble with customs officials and so on. But you make a good point and I guess I shall not worry too much about it.

Do you mean that modern PSUs they come with surge/low voltage protection? Would then a UPS be redundant?

I have a new question about RAID setups. I was considering purchasing 2x2.5" 1TB HDDs and pairing it in RAID1.

However now that 2.5" SSDs are relatively cheap, would they be more reliable than HDDs, and hence RAID not very useful? If such is the case I could possibly avoid going for a larger case as many have the 2 x2.5" drive bay facility but not much more than that.

If you're concerned about the drive bracket blocking the pcie slot on the M350, you may want to check the L4 by Lone Industries. That case have space for dual slot-low profile pcie device without affecting drive space, and best of all it's developed in this forum.

Go check around the Custom Cases & Projects section.

Lovely case actually. I shall consider it seriously. Thanks!

 

[stree]

Quick check on Outervision using spec in your intro post, ( I used A8-7600 as stand in APU, 65w, 3.1gHZ and 1.2v)
gives recommended 171 watt PSU....................Consider a G-Unique rated to 220watt with appropriate brick .

 

[jtd871]

I have heard that some PSUs are not compatible with the output generated by some UPSs. May want to check with the manufacturer of the PSU if there are known compatibility issues with your UPS of choice.

Reviews of product literature should indicate what type of protection is built into a given PSU (same goes for UPSs). Not all PSUs have the same protective measures. Do your homework. I would say that buying a name brand PSU offered by a well-known and large OEM generally should see you safer compared to bargain PSUs.

 

[Thehack]

I have heard that some PSUs are not compatible with the output generated by some UPSs. May want to check with the manufacturer of the PSU if there are known compatibility issues with your UPS of choice.

Reviews of product literature should indicate what type of protection is built into a given PSU (same goes for UPSs). Not all PSUs have the same protective measures. Do your homework. I would say that buying a name brand PSU offered by a well-known and large OEM generally should see you safer compared to bargain PSUs.

Just make sure you get a sine-wave type UPS.

For consumer use, most people the US buys cyberpower: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups/pfc-sinewave/

 

[Shahmatt]

More thoughts:
I've decided I'll forget about trying to make use of the PCIx16 slot and focus on making the system as portable as possible. I've also decided that I'll be holding out as best as I can until Raven Ridge.

I've come across a couple of Chinese cases on Aliexpress - the Realan E-W60 and EW80. Realan seems to make nice cases that are not too expensive for a novice builder like me to experiment with.

Initially I pondered over their tower steel models which are ventilated at both the top and bottom. But because of the high humidity we have here in these parts (and low price of the case) I suspect corrosion could be a problem, and so I moved on to their aluminum horizontal profile cases.

I'm not a big fan of the horizontal setup, in particular the closed roof type, as it just seems like a heat trap. Hot air rises and with a closed roof it would not seem to have much in the way of escape.

Side vents are a compromise but that would need good active ventilation. On the positive side, a closed roof would mean the insides would be better protected from falling dust, debris and such - this was one of the reasons I've been resisting the M350 as an option.

Moving on, both the E-W60 and E-W80 have vent holes at the bottom (good for a m.2 ssd), and also on two sides. I plan to mount 50 or 60mm fans (depending on the which case I go with) with dust filters and fire air into the case from one side.

I wonder if the CPU fan blowing down on the heat sink would interfere with the overall casing airflow. If so how practical would it be to try a passive heatsink and depend on casing fans to push air through them?

Depending on power requirements I'll either go with a PicoPSU 160W or similar HDPlex. HDPlex seems to have available their internal powerbrick, but I'm not sure how it would be mounted inside the case. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Link to the W80, the more likely candidate, here:
http://www.minicase.net/product_E-W80.html

 

[Thehack]

More thoughts:
I've decided I'll forget about trying to make use of the PCIx16 slot and focus on making the system as portable as possible. I've also decided that I'll be holding out as best as I can until Raven Ridge.

I've come across a couple of Chinese cases on Aliexpress - the Realan E-W60 and EW80. Realan seems to make nice cases that are not too expensive for a novice builder like me to experiment with.

Initially I pondered over their tower steel models which are ventilated at both the top and bottom. But because of the high humidity we have here in these parts (and low price of the case) I suspect corrosion could be a problem, and so I moved on to their aluminum horizontal profile cases.

I'm not a big fan of the horizontal setup, in particular the closed roof type, as it just seems like a heat trap. Hot air rises and with a closed roof it would not seem to have much in the way of escape.

Side vents are a compromise but that would need good active ventilation. On the positive side, a closed roof would mean the insides would be better protected from falling dust, debris and such - this was one of the reasons I've been resisting the M350 as an option.

Moving on, both the E-W60 and E-W80 have vent holes at the bottom (good for a m.2 ssd), and also on two sides. I plan to mount 50 or 60mm fans (depending on the which case I go with) with dust filters and fire air into the case from one side.

I wonder if the CPU fan blowing down on the heat sink would interfere with the overall casing airflow. If so how practical would it be to try a passive heatsink and depend on casing fans to push air through them?

Depending on power requirements I'll either go with a PicoPSU 160W or similar HDPlex. HDPlex seems to have available their internal powerbrick, but I'm not sure how it would be mounted inside the case. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Link to the W80, the more likely candidate, here:
http://www.minicase.net/product_E-W80.html

1. Hot air rising is insignificant compared to force air convection. Don't even consider that as a factor.

2. Corrosion is an issue if the metal is exposed. Even in high humidity places computers are generally in doors away from the elements and the metal will outlast the case usefulness.

3. The biggest thing is ensuring there is fresh airflow for the CPU cooler.

4. As long as there is not a big heat trap you don't really need vents for the NVMe. The lab measurements are not indicative of normal use and is closer to running enterprise level stuff.

 

[Shahmatt]

About corrosion: I guess I'm a bit worried about rusting at the stress points like the screw holes. But your point is valid.

About NVMe drives: I've read in a few reviews some users experience throttling due to heat. Some SFF builds have used thermal pads and the like to transfer heat to the casing. So I'm not sure that the problems are only for heavy loads.

 

[Thehack]

About corrosion: I guess I'm a bit worried about rusting at the stress points like the screw holes. But your point is valid.

About NVMe drives: I've read in a few reviews some users experience throttling due to heat. Some SFF builds have used thermal pads and the like to transfer heat to the casing. So I'm not sure that the problems are only for heavy loads.

Yeah. Some designs do end up having hotspots but a lot of is also being preemptive. The typical home use loads for an SSD is very pedestrian. You're hardly moving large batches of data to stress the controller.